Skip to main content

View Diary: [UPDATE - MORE PHOTOS] 200,000 Rise Up in Brazil - "The People Have Awakened" (333 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  The only countries not having these issues (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, BroadwayBaby1

    on a wide scale are those like Canada, Scandinavian countries, etc...but those countries also have great additional revenue source that rhymes with 'boil'...

    I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

    by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:19:48 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You mean those countries (0+ / 0-)

      That have larger degrees of functional socialism (putting the People first) built into their governments.

      "Political ends as sad remains will die." - YES 'And You and I' ; -8.88, -9.54

      by US Blues on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:34:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Plenty of countries have the same systems (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jiffypop, erush1345, Quicklund

        and are not doing nearly as well.

        Don't worry about telling me what I mean; check yourself first.

        I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

        by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:49:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  +1 Nations who respect their citizens (0+ / 0-)

        don't seem to be having these problems.

        Nations who are careful not to allow multinational corporations to control their government and corrupt their politicians don't have these problems.

        When you live in a country where your government works for you, its a much different world.

        "If you can't take their money, eat their food, drink their booze and then vote against them, you have no business being in DC."

        by Betty Pinson on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:51:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Brazil has been fighting to climb (9+ / 0-)

          tooth and nail out of what was called "3rd world nation status".  

          Since most people here don't seem to know much about Brazil and Brazilian politics - may I point out that Brazilians suffered under a right wing totalitarian military dictatorship from 1964 to 1985.

          As my many friends in Brazil have pointed out (those who are my age and older) the bulk of the young people you see in the streets protesting were born after the fall of what many have called fascism in Brazil.

          Yes, they are pushing for even faster change, but if you liken this to some sort of "protest the oligarchy" movement you are dead wrong.  

          Brazil historically was the largest slave state in the New World.  It has the largest black population - second only to Nigeria.

          Are there problems - yes.  Economic inequality persists, much of it tied to skin color, though not the way we dub it here, since most "white" Brazilians would be black in the U.S. Treatment of Brazil's indigenous population is still a major cause for world concern (not that ours is much better)

          The rise - in a short period of time of a democratic socialist Labor Party into power, spearheaded by Lula (Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva) a man who didn't complete grade school, came from poverty, and who is not "white" in a U.S. sense (most Brazilians  think of him as "pardo" mixed ancestry)
          is an amazing accomplishment.

          Brazil currently has become energy self-sufficient - and all cars are flex fuel.  

          It is developing as a major left of center player in this hemisphere.

          Brazil has National Health Care, and the US tried to take it to court when they distributed generic AIDS drugs for free - violating BigPharma's stranglehold on the cocktails.

          When in Brazil, I can ride the bus for free - because of my age.  I can (even as a visitor) use free health services.

          Are conditions bad in many favelas? Yes.  
          Are they in any way comparable to conditions there in very recent history - no.

          Students who go to public university (not private) go free. And get a stipend.

          Most of the demonstrations recently have been peaceful, and the police over-reaction has been condemned , but I'd like to point out that so has the trashing of stores and cars and spaces by a small segment of the protesters.

          Having watched friends killed in Chile, under a similar regime to Brazil's dictatorship, not so very long ago,  please keep in mind that ordinary Brazilians haven't forgotten the heavy arm of the military, including kidnapping, torture, imprisonment, forced disappearance, and murder.

          See National Truth

          So, contrary to what seems to be expressed in this diary - what you are seeing is not Occupy part 2 , Brazilian style.

          Nor is it a revolution. It is a protest. A large and vocal one.

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by Denise Oliver Velez on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 10:47:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You don't understand. Protesters anywhere (4+ / 0-)

            =Occupy. There is even a guy in a Guy Fawkes mask pictured above.


          •  I disagree with your entire analysis. You don't (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            get 240,000 people across major cities to rise up in this type of protest based on your analysis.

            Again, I'm using sourced material, including the BBC report, and the video by the young man explaining the reasons why they are rising up.

            It is about corruption, and subjugation, and the spending of exorbitant amounts of money on sports stadiums while the society is being neglected.

            •  I agree with Denise Oliver Velez (3+ / 0-)

              and I find your reasoning specious.

              You don't get 240,000 people across major cities to rise up in this type of protest based on your analysis.
              Brazil: population 196 million (2011)

              Wisconsin: population 5.7  million (2012)

              Proportionally speaking, 240,000 Brazilians is roughly the same fraction as 7,000 Wisconsinites.

              In Wisconsin during 2011, many protests occurred.

              From Wiki:

              The protests and demonstrations began following Walker's introduction of Assembly Bill 11[39][40] to the Wisconsin State Assembly on February 15, 2011. This bill became known as the "Budget Repair Bill" to proponents, and the "Collective Bargaining, or Union Busting Bill" to opponents.

              On February 15, tens of thousands of protesters demonstrated in and around the Capitol building in Madison[43][44] regarding the proposed legislation's limitations on collective bargaining for and against Walker's bill.[45] "Kill the Bill" remained one of the main slogans of the protesters.


              In one single day the proportional equivalent of 750,000 or more Brazilians marched in protest due to a governmental action.

              This isn't a revolution. This is what democracy looks like.

              •  I agree with her too, and when I find myself (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quicklund, Denise Oliver Velez

                agreeing with Quicklund, it always worries me.


              •  People can clearly see who's argument is (0+ / 0-)

                specious here.  Amazing you took the time to write that absurdity, with numbers and all.  Funny, actually.  Moving on...

                •  None as blind (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Denise Oliver Velez, emelyn

                  as those who turn their nose up at math, the one pure science.

                  But more to the point, the only thing you offered up in your specious rationale is basically, 240,000 is a lotta Brazillians so this must be a revolution.

                  Well, Brazilian (faux) revolutions don't got nothing over Wisconsin protests. By which I mean, it is good to see our Brazilian brothers and sisters out protesting and urge the  gov't to continue growing the naiscent Brazilian democracy and to rein in further police abuses. Solidarity.

                  •  Specious vs. fallacious... Let's see: (0+ / 0-)

                    First, in any country, whether the population is 1 billion or 50 million, or 200 million, a sustained uprising/protest where upwards of 250,000 people take to the streets, it is considered something of great significance and of great concerned by the powers that be.

                    So your absurd and illogical attempt at undermining the importance of this uprising in Brazil is not only specious, but fallacious.

                    Number two, the underlying reason people are taking to the streets is because of the level of corruption and subjugation people are enduring at the hands of an increasingly disconnected moneyed ruling class.

                    Number three, those same conditions are afflicting many other Western countries, including the U.S.

                    You see, no matter how specious, fallacious, or intellectually dishonest your line of argument may be, you will never be able to negate these truisms I listed here.

                    And anybody with half a brain can see that.  But again, I enjoy taking on people like you.

                    •  See? You can't stay on topic. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      I said nothing to undermine the Brazilian protests. In fact I praised them for being a manifestation of a healthy democracy taking root in yet another nation. What you are calling a revolution I am calling part of the democratic process.

                      Unless you are of the opinion "democracy" is in itself inherently slanderous, you have nothing to stand on making this charge.

          •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)

            Interesting and informative and refreshingly free of hyperbole and presumption.

          •  Very good analysis. n/t (3+ / 0-)

            Article 196. Health care is a right of all persons and an obligation of the State, guaranteed through social and economic policies that provide...universal and equitable access to programs and services....

            by SLKRR on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:23:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  it's very similar to South Africa (3+ / 0-)

            Since South Africa emerged from apartheid, it has made tremendous gains for its people.  Huge numbers of housing were built and made available, at cheap prices, to people who had until then been living in tin shantytowns.  Massive jobs programs pulled many people out of poverty. Wealth was redistributed at a massive rate, downwards.

            And yet much remains.  There are still slums and shantytowns in every city. Crime rates are enormously high, as desperate people do what they must to stay alive. Unemployment and underemployment are still massive problems. Corruption permeates the government and the police (ask me sometime about how I bribed a South African cop).

            Because of that, there are protests and demonstrations in Pretoria every weekend. Cops move in, heads get cracked.

            But that does not mean the protesters want an end to the government. It means they want their government to WORK.

    •  Actually there were massive protests (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      in Quebec against austerity about a year ago.

      I'm truly sorry Man's dominion Has broken Nature's social union--Robert Burns

      by Eric Blair on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:38:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Scandinavia more than Canada (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Canada's been jostled less than the US in the economic turmoil but she is challenged to pay for her social net too, is the impression I get. But certainly Norway with its small population and North Sea oil revenue is having a much easier time of it. Small, cohesive nations have a marked advantage. Norwegians seem to agree to a great deal what is good for Norway.

      •  make no mistake, Norway has been hit too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        When I was there two summers ago, people would always remark that the recession has impacted them too. And indeed they have made a number of cutbacks, some of them unpopular.  But they are VERY VERY careful not to impact on any of the social programs that really help their people, and to make their cuts elsewhere.

        They know their priorities, and no major political party (I happened to be there during election time) disputes those priorities.

        •  Oil comes and goes. National cohesion is lasting (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          The Norge put their oil revenues into a sustaining national fund instead of squandering them. (As I understand things.) That sort of social cohesion is a powerful good for a nation. But it is easier to achieve in smaller populations. In the USA, it's pretty much a pipe dream. :)

          •  well, they have a small population, but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            they have a small economy, too.

            Per capita, there's no reason we can't do just as well as they do.  We are, after all, the richest society that has ever existed in all of human history.

            •  That's not really what I said (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tony Situ

              My only point was to observe how smaller populations have certain advantages over larger populations. Or if not plural advantages than at least one. in this case Norway has a better social net because the vast bulk of Norwegian society agrees with making that net a national priority. The Us is much more fractured on this issue and thus has not gone nearly as far down that path.

              •  ah, I see. Yes if there is one thing Occupy taught (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tony Situ, Quicklund

                us, it is that small groups are much better for decision-making and consensus-building than large groups are.

                But Norway also had the advantage, ironically, of having an enlightened exploiting class, who freely admitted that they supported the social network enthusiastically because, as my Norwegian professor friend put it, "Happy workers don't make revolutions".

                •  Enlightened is as enlightened does (0+ / 0-)

                  Social stratification will always be with us but I don't see the upper class as the exploiting class in a society where everyone gets a fair shake. "Happy workers don't make revolutions"... that pretty much sums up the working classes' demands and leverage. Message received, i'd say.

                  It's been a long time since I had a Norwegian friend but I have the rare experience of having a Norwegian family live across the street from me while I was in 1st grade. They had a son my age and we were good pals while they lived here.

                  •  well, I'm a marxist and you're not ;) (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Quicklund, marsanges

                    My Norwegian friend is a professor of geology at the University of Oslo.

                    So I got to have a nice long behind-the-scenes look at the "Ida" fossil before it opened for display.

                    •  Then enlighten me :) (0+ / 0-)

                      What is the goal of society other than to provide people with the opportunity for a happy life? I don't see happiness as belonging to a particular ideology (or excluded from any either.)

                      •  oh, I can accept that as the social goal (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        I'm referring more to this:

                        I don't see the upper class as the exploiting class in a society where everyone gets a fair shake.
                        I think any society with an upper class is, inherently, not one where everyone gets a fair shake.
                        •  That is artificial (0+ / 0-)

                          That imposes one person's value system upon another. If I am happy working for a lower wage in exchange for some other benefit, who's business is it of yours to tell me I cannot live my life that way? Is not happiness a personal affair?

                          Besides, what you envision has no example in biology or in recorded history. Goals should be achievable.

                          •  every social system is artificial. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            Every social system imposes someone's values onto someone else.

                            Every social system tells someone how to live their life.

                            I don't worry about wages--wages are an element of a capitalist system and don't exist in any other economic system.

                            And until 1789, elected democratic governments did not exist in biology or recorded history either. And every king in Europe said democracy was an unachievable goal, because obviously people were too stupid to rule themselves (and ironically the Founding Fathers agreed with them--they were both wrong).


                          •  I worded that poorly (0+ / 0-)

                            I suspect a static system cannot thrive. But that's getting too far off track. If a society developed in which everyone was satisfied with their lot, I'd accept that as a fair society.

                          •  in the economic sense (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            If a society developed in which everyone was satisfied with their lot, I'd accept that as a fair society.
                            I'd agree.

                            Every society has to strive continuously in areas like science and technology, though.  And of course, as Mazlow so brilliantly pointed out, that is only possible when the first steps of the social hierarchy--economic necessities--are fulfilled.

                            The excuse given by apologists for capitalism--that such advances are only possible through a system of private profit--is simply silly.  The most basic and important achievements in human culture----fire, stone tools, metal smelting, pottery, brick, textile weaving--were all made solely for their social utility.  Their inventors didn't get a dime of profit from them. Humans are driven to create and to improve our creations. That requires no profit motive.

                            (And indeed as an aside, it's not usually the inventor of something that profits from it even today--the idea is simply bought out by some corporation who then makes a ton of money after paying the inventor a pittance.)

                          •  Well, my inventions went straight to my employer (0+ / 0-)

                            That was a condition of employment, standard in the industry. But at least my employer paid decent bonuses for patents regardless of the utility of the patent. So in some cases the inventor would be paid thousands more than the invention was worth,in other cases teh fraction would be in "pittance" territory.

                            But I worked at another corp which paid a flat legal minimum fee of $1/patent. :(

                          •  good (0+ / 0-)

                            I am happy to see that educated marxists are still around in the US. But elected democratic governments, to be fair, they werent a new invention in 1789. (Or 1776). It wasnt a great new discovery. You can trace the history of such representative rule through to the deeps of time. Thats some of the good hidden in humans, they do have this idea and will keep coming up with it even if they are wholly on their own.

                          •  Everyone should see the Happy Movie as you are (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            quite correct in pointing out happiness as a goal of organized society and one which has no idealogical base.

                            "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

                            by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 06:15:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Mazlow's Hierarchy is actually a good starting (0+ / 0-)

                            point.  Economic security comes first.  Nothing else can be sustained without that.

                            Alas, global corporate capitalism fails at that. With all its massive productive capacity, it can't even feed everyone. (Or, more correctly, it doesn't WANT to feed everyone--it only wants to feed people who have the money to pay for food, since the goal of the system is to take the money, not to feed anybody.)

                            It's a fail.

                          •  Actually, Grimm's Fisherman & His Wife is better. (0+ / 0-)


                            And yes, "economic security" is a fairy tale.

                            "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

                            by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 08:18:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  a fairy tale, huh . . . . (0+ / 0-)

                            That's pretty funny.

                          •  In the sense that do hedge fund managers have (0+ / 0-)

                            economic security? It's been 30 years since I read Maslow, but a hierarchy of needs doesn't equate to a priori happiness.

                            "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

                            by Kvetchnrelease on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 08:31:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah, pity the poor hedge fund managers (0+ / 0-)

                            It must be awful to live that way.


    •  You talk to a Canadian lately? (0+ / 0-)

      They have their own issues, thank you. They're trying to fight the Americanization of their Health Care system last I checked.

      And Islamophobia is spreading like a virus in Scandinavian countries. Much worse than over here. Word to Brevik. Osama once boasted that he had no beef with these countries? Well that's over with. Plenty of folk over there are all on board for a war again Islam.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 12:53:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this is certainly true: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        And Islamophobia is spreading like a virus in Scandinavian countries.
        In Norway, there is also a lot of resentment at the large number of eastern Europeans (especially "gypsies") that have emigrated to Oslo.

        Nothing like the virulence that we have here, but it is there, and it worries many Norwegians.

        (I happened to be there literally a week after the mass shooting/bombing.)

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site