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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: GOP's Latino problem, their IRS problem, and more (174 comments)

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  •  I wonder about those who are down on (10+ / 0-)

    Snowden for bringing down the light.

    We should not tolerate spying or data mining or whatever fancy and obfuscating names people want to apply to making commoners aware of secret bullshit being done to them.

    I dont need to be spied on. Its wrong, its stupid, and it is a waste of time and money IF this spying shit is 'on the up and up' which is totally improbable.

    This government goes well out of its way to do shit wrong and do wrong shit. Anything but the right thing and only if there's no other choice but to do the right thing. And that we can put off until we can milk it politically.

    •  I agree though I also agree he is a flawed (13+ / 0-)

      messenger in some ways (but who is perfect? Ozzie and Harriet don't do politics.)

      But the point, Jay's point, my point, is that it is about the story.

      Now, if you look at the Michael Cohen piece and the 2006 USA Today piece by Susan Page and the 2008-2010 piece by WaPo, you realize Snowden's gift (and luck) was telling us when we were ready to hear it.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 04:58:05 AM PDT

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      •  Nothing's perfect. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        on the cusp, skohayes

        We're lucky to get what we got.

        Some of us bad attitudes knew this but I didn't feel that harping on it would do anything but make me look kookier than normal

        Now we know.

        Snowden did a good thing, no matter what else he may have screwed up.

        If he has a book and movie contract in his pocket already I'd be suspicious, but the info about spying is priceless no matter what else he may have screwed up.

        Now... getting it stopped is another thing and I don't hold m breath on that. That would be right and our brilliant leaders are CLEARLY not interested in anything other than expanding it as far as technologically possible.

        Plenty of americans have been sufficently cowed by this government and believe this spying is somehow keeping them safe.

        2 words about that: Boston Marathon.

        Total fail if this spying crap is to keep us safe.

        •  Comey (who resisted it) appointed at FBI (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          xxdr zombiexx, on the cusp, skohayes, Sylv

          more information
          more transparency
          more defense and public acknowledgment of what's happening
          pressure to reveal more of same

          just some immediate fallout.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:15:27 AM PDT

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          •  The word "transparency"... (0+ / 0-)

            Either the government does bad things in secret, like spying, or they do bad things in front of God and everybody, ie: The Sequester.

            I am thrilled with the fallout but I would caution people about any internal itch to commend the FBI for anything. They aren't really interested in transparency and are among the law enforcement agencies that like as many ways aroung the 4th as they can get.

            It has defined the FBI historically, let us all remember the Church Committee and how their recommendations were trashed by the PATRIOT Act and other 'fallout" from 9/11 and the Cheney Administration's masterful exploitation of it.

            It is wrong for Americans to be comfy with this.

            •  not a comment on the FBI (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xxdr zombiexx, skohayes, Sylv

              it's a comment on Obama visibly picking Comey because he supposedly argued with Ashcroft et al. over TIA.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:33:01 AM PDT

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              •  Oooh..... I know who you're talking about now (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv

                That incident goes way back into the heart of  the Bush Darkness.

                The name just didn't click until you said that.

              •  So many nefarious incidents from that era (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv, TerryDarc

                Obama praises FBI director nominee Comey for integrity

                In 2004, White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and White House chief of staff Andy Card tried to persuade Attorney General John Ashcroft, who was ill with acute pancreatitis, to reauthorize a warrantless eavesdropping program while in his hospital bed. Comey, who was Ashcroft's top deputy and acting attorney general at the time, learned of Gonzales and Card's plan and rushed to Ashcroft's hospital room, along with Mueller.

                Both threatened to resign if the White House renewed the program. As a result, it was not reauthorized.

                "He was prepared to give up the job he loved, rather that be a part of something that he felt was fundamentally wrong," Obama said.

                Now they preside over it?
        •  In that case (0+ / 0-)

          If you're saying the Boston Marathon bombing proves that spying doesn't work, then that would suggest you're ready to live with incidents like the Boston Marathon bombing. How comfortable for you as you are not a victim or know someone who is.

          I don't see any solutions coming from anyone here. Lots of self-righteous bib-dribbling (in general, not directed at the poster) and Internet forum demands, but nothing that could possibly border on "here's a better mousetrap." This helps explain why Snowden continues to get feted. Unfortunately, there is no central address for "Bad Guys," which means that if you have no solution to deal with spying (and that includes the fiction of "limited" spying), then there's no problem. This is one of those feast or famine issues, and I see no one stepping up to the plate.

      •  Because so many other people (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg Dworkin, Sylv

        who had been discussing this and warning us and trying to get Congress to pay attention for years just couldn't get through to us - or something like that.

        It's embarrassing and disheartening.

        Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

        by mikidee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 06:01:45 AM PDT

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        •  list is suprisingly long (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sylv, mikidee

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 06:07:23 AM PDT

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          •  Yeppers - (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TerryDarc

            I find most of those pre-Snowden/Greenwald sources to be much more informative, interesting, and compelling than what has been disclosed this month (even if they aren't as sexy as the hero/traitor baggage in the Snowden/Greenwald disclosures).

            Here's an interesting one from 2005 discussing Section 215 that, significantly, involves some commentary by James Comey.

            This is one area where DKos has failed me - in spite of your efforts to help people drop the rox/sux hyperventilating over personalities (and thx for that, btw).

            So much of this chatter reminds me of an experience I had at the very beginning of the "first" Gulf War. I was downtown after work in a packed bar that had a lot of teevees tuned to "live" coverage of what was mostly tracers. A 60ish burned-out attorney had hold of the remote for the biggest teevee and would raise and lower the volume - apropos of absolutely nothing. As the volume increased, the crowd would grow silent and stare at the teevees showing - tracers. As the volume decreased, folks would start chattering and speculating and shrieking about "WAR" or "PEACE" or "DIRTY FUCKING HIPPIES," etc.

            Scary stuff.

            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

            by mikidee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 07:42:46 AM PDT

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            •  Scary, indeed (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mikidee, Greg Dworkin

              I honestly don't know what to think of Snowden yet. I agree that the discussions of the topic on DKos have not helped me make an intelligent choice.

              What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

              by TerryDarc on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 08:29:24 AM PDT

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              •  well, some discussions like this one (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv

                might be better than others. Just read the list from Wired to WaPo and you'll be better educated. Not about Snowden, maybe, but about the issue.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:09:00 AM PDT

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                •  Actually, I spoke a bit too soon... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Greg Dworkin

                  ...Delphine's "Not Sure" comment is less chest thumping, anti-spying rhetoric and presents better alternatives to DK meme running currently IMO.

                  Did see Rachel M give a laundry list of the things we've learned from Snowden and THAT was illuminating and made it sound like he'd done something worthwhile.

                  What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

                  by TerryDarc on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:33:31 AM PDT

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              •  but as for what to think of Snowden (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv

                the Cohen article I linked in the main post made me think.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:17:39 AM PDT

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    •  and I wonder about those (6+ / 0-)

      that feel the need to be insulting to anyone that doesn't automatically agree with their viewpoint.

      Much if not most of what has been 'revealed' by Snowden (who by the way hasn't actually been a whistleblower yet) has been things that should have been fairly common knowledge.

      I reserve final judgement till the story is over but the fact is that reading metadata is about as unintrusive as you can get. Nevermind that without a doubt other nations are doing exactly the same thing.

      I don't have any easy answers for you (and frankly I think that anyone that thinks there are easy answers to this either misses the complexities of the issues or doesn't understand them) but the genie is not only out of the bottle it's not going back in. We live in an increasing small world where the natural result of the sum total of advances of the last 20 years is less privacy.

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:38:50 AM PDT

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