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View Diary: Pork laced bullets, for suckas (45 comments)

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  •  They advertise that they paint the bullets with it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clytemnestra

    Nothing to do with the powder.  

    About taggants--it is not fouling the bore that is the problem.  The problem is that introducing an adulterant to the powder changes the composition of the powder, which changes the burning rate.  Changing the burning rate changes some really important stuff, such as chamber pressures (safety issue) and velocity (accuracy issue).  Powder is a precise formula, and there are dozens of different powders, each developed for specific purposes.  There are spherical-shaped powders, flat-flake powders, and cylindrical powders with the cylinders of different heights, to name just three types.  

    •  And how difficult is it (2+ / 0-)

      to recalculate based on the difference in burn rate with/without taggant?

      If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

      by CwV on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:01:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Probably pretty difficult. Remember that the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clytemnestra

        theory is to add enough (non-burning) taggant to be able to trace the ammo which means using enough to make sure enough taggant sticks to the bullet (otherwise how would you trace it?).  Now, if you only care about using the taggants to trace pipe bombs made with smokeless powder it would probably be quite a bit easier.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:50:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Reloaders recalculate all the time (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clytemnestra

          for different effects and different pellet weights. To make the calculation, they must have the relevant data on the powder's characteristics. Plugging in a different number into the calculation can't be that hard.
          Actually, I'd like to see the taggant in the pellet so that even a bullet fragment, devoid of powder, is still trackable to the final retail purchaser  (and taggant can be purchased as well, which takes care of reloaders that cast their own pellets).
          It would make people very careful about bullet control and as a bonus, it would mean that there'd be no reason to register guns or worry about background checks. You can have all the guns in the world as long as LE can track the batch of bullets from the manufacturer through the distribution chain to the final retail buyer.
          And anyone caught with "unsigned" bullets is assumed to be about to commit a murder, just as anyone busted with an ounce of coke is charged as a dealer.

          If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

          by CwV on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 03:15:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'd be interested in learning more about (2+ / 0-)

      taggants.

      Your comment convinces me that formulations can be designed or adjusted for firearms similar to the way formulations for drugs can be designed for immediate release for for slow release.

      It's not rocket science and it's not cooking. We have more than a century of experience with explosive and flammable but not explosive materials.

      Please post some links supporting your claims about taggants.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:20:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The point is there are two possible purposes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite

        of taggants in gunpowder.  The first is to be able to track bombs made with it.  The second is to be able to trace ammo even after it has been fired.  If you want to enable the tracing of fired ammo you have to use far more of the taggant than if you only care about tracing pipe bombs.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:51:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

          a link would be appreciated.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:58:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Did you know we can trace where counterfeit (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a2nite

          medicines are made based on the pollen grains that contaminate counterfeit manufacturer's products?

          Pollen wouldn't survive as a tracer, but I'm not convinced it would require huge amounts.

          But I can see some limitations because it has to be non-toxic. Wouldn't want to make bullets even more lethal.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 03:02:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Here's a start (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener

        http://kwk.us/...

        Keep in mind that every powder must be tested with every possible load/bullet combination.  Keep in mind that the powder type must be uniform throughout or the pressures will vary and the data will be useless.  This means that any introduced impurity must be a uniform amount from load-to-load.  

        Keep in mind that we are dealing with a powder load weighed between 20 and 60 grains, for the most part.  A grain is 1/7000th of a pound.  As you can see, introducing an impurity in a small amount is a critical addition.

        http://www.asknumbers.com/...

        Charges of powder weighed into a cartridge case are accurate to about 1/10 grain.  The difference between a load that is safe to fire in a modern firearm and one that is not is quite small.  Powder charges that are below the maximum pressures, but vary by small amounts produce varying velocities which drastically effects accuracy.

        Another problem regarding taggants is introduced with how powders are manufactured, packaged and distributed.  A single manufacturer (most are overseas) not only produces many different types of powder, the manufacturer produces powder sold under different labels, for different companies.  The powder is identical, made in large batches, and shipped to different packagers in drums, where it is further broken down into smaller drums and sold to large cartridge manufacturers, or even broken down into still smaller packages and distributed nationwide to sporting goods stores as bulk powder for reloading.  The cartridge manufacturers further load and box their cartridges under many different brands and distribute those thoughout the country.  Please tell me how that could be tracked to an individual sale, even with a taggant.

        •  Safety in the drug supply chain has (0+ / 0-)

          faced all the same issues for decades.

          There is no reason assume it's an unsolvable problem. Thank you for your detailed explanation of the issues. If we can do it for drugs, we can do it for components used in bullets.

          The big difference is that in drugs, the manufacturer's have a profit motive to protect, where with gun manufacturers they have a profit margin to defend.

          But I don't find, "it's technically challenging" to be persuasive on its face.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 03:58:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, you could say the same thing about room (0+ / 0-)

            temperature superconductors.  Or a practical invisibility cloak using metamaterials.  After all, it's just precision materials science which we are very good at, right?  The problem with taggants is that you need to have enough of them survive the very high heat and pressures to ensure you can trace any bullet regardless of caliber or load (including a 22 short).  The drug supply chain doesn't have nearly the same problems as an inert tag does nothing except possibly slightly increase the pill size.  How many of those pill taggants do you think would survive an autoclave?

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 04:46:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can think of plenty of potential taggants (0+ / 0-)

              that would not only survive and autoclave, but would also survive the high temperature and heat of an explosion in a firearm.

              I'm not sure how many are nontoxic if they accompany the bullet into a human body.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:39:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Meant high temp and pressure nt (0+ / 0-)

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:39:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok, which ones that actually exist and can (0+ / 0-)

                  hold a few kilobits of storage to ensure a permanently unique serial number per batch that never gets reused?  Oh, and it needs to actually exist as something made of the same material as a respirocyte could definitely handle it but that is just hypothetical.  Oh, and you need to use enough to guarantee at least some will stick to the bullet (remember, the taggant is in the powder and it has to be at least 99.9% effective) but not so much as to compromise the quality of the powder.

                  You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                  by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 07:58:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  So if 1 grain is about 65 mg (0+ / 0-)

          1/7000 pound; equals a troy grain or 64.799 milligrams

          Someone mentioned a bullet that uses 41-46 grains. Let's use that as a hypothetical. Are reloaders counting out individual grains? Or are they measuring out a couple grams?

          We currently have no political will to do the easy steps in gun safety, and I'm not counting my breath about taggants. But don't try to convince me that it's technically too difficult because precision material properties are required.

          We, as a nation, are experts at designing materials with desired properties and extremely high precision.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 04:07:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Scales are set in grains not grams (0+ / 0-)

            The charge is by weight.  A grain is not a single particle of powder, it is 1/7000th of an ounce of powder.  A "grain" of powder consists of hundreds  of flakes, spheres, or cylinders, depending on the type of powder.

            Furthermore, remember the capacity of the cartridge case is finite, so after the proper weight charge is loaded, there may be no more room inside the case.

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