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View Diary: Democrats and silos: What to fight for? Hint—everything (200 comments)

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  •  I'm having a hard time figuring out (3+ / 0-)

    if you mean this or if it's snark.

    I am a big fan of the Green Jobs meme, and feel that the only reason it didn't work is because it requires that the government, or somebody, spend money to create said Green Jobs, and the 1% doesn't wanna, and the government doesn't wanna do anything that upsets the 1%.

    Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:12:49 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think jgnyc is talking tactics. (4+ / 0-)

      Doing green jobs without calling it that.

      If I read this correctly, I understand the point, but it also empowers the Right to demonize "green" the way it demonized "liberal."  I would like to keep our terminology and keep its meaning and vibrancy, toward the day when those terms will be ones that all want to claim as their home.

      •  but why fight that fight? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Armando, dance you monster, AoT, lotlizard

        It's about winning elections near term. Liberal got demonized because the Dems decided to triangulate right as the Reaganauts decided to take no prisoners. And, of course, the Civil Rights victories which tribally pissed off a large portion of the frankly racist white working class.

        Nothing wrong with "green" (unlike "the 1%" which I think is a real negative) but stay away from it appearing that the hippies are winning by making it seem we're forward looking economic warriors and of course there's a green component because it's good for business and the Chinese are doing it (they sort of aren't but they do have faster trains) and the Europeans are doing it and if we want to BRING AMERICA INTO THE FUTURE tm we have to do everything possible - and that requires maximizing our industrial management strategies (read - cut down on waste and pollution).

        If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

        by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:43:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I get your point, really. (4+ / 0-)

          Your approach works better in the short run.  Mine is aimed at the longer run, to reclaim ground we've been losing.  We're about to run out of ground and vocabulary on our side, and for a change I'd like to see us push the other side on its heels, not beg them for a dance.

          •  I don't believe it works better in the short run. (5+ / 0-)

            We've been trying and trying to placate "the other side" and we've gotten exactly nothing out of them. Nothing that involves money, that is.

            They don't care what words we dress it up with. They want all the money and resources, and they want us to have none. It really is that stark. It took me 26 years of activism to finally realize it, but that's really where they're at.

            Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:16:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not placating "the other side" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kj in missouri

              it's making common cause with them. Writing off the entire Republican base is counter productive. Some of them are religious or ideological dead enders, some of them aren't.

              If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

              by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:40:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Will they vote for money to create jobs? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                happymisanthropy

                Will they vote for the necessary climate protections that will secure our food and water supply? Will they vote for putting Wall St back behind a wall of laws that keeps them from wrecking the world economy?

                That's what needs to be done to secure our future, that and trade agreements that don't destroy our workers and businesses.

                Things are too dire now. People who don't want to get on board with the basic things necessary to our survival are not people that it's any use to make common cause with. That's what I mean by "the other side." And actually, I believe that there are both Reagan Democrats and Republicans who would get on board with all those things. The ones who won't, well, we've been chasing them long enough.

                Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:28:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  sort of (0+ / 0-)

                  >Will they vote for money to create jobs?

                  If pitched correctly yes. More sell the voters on a vision, a Way Forward, putting America Back to Work.

                  > Will they vote for the necessary climate protections that will secure our food and water supply?

                  No. The Republican tribe will not at least I'm very doubtful.

                  > Will they vote for putting Wall St back behind a wall of laws that keeps them from wrecking the world economy?

                  Sort of. I think mainstreet is ready for a transaction tax but I doubt any House candidates next year will bring it up. Hope I'm wrong as it's a moral high ground winner.

                  If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

                  by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:12:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Frankly, I think the American people would be (6+ / 0-)

          fine with green jobs as long as they exist and pay a decent living wage, because the American people would be fine with any job as long as it exists and pays a decent wage. It's not a problem of framing; it's a problem of no one being willing to pony up the money to create the jobs, for a variety of reasons.

          In other words, whether you frame it in a way that they can say OMG the hippies are winning or whether you frame it like an Archie Bunker screed, in the end it doesn't matter: in the end you will need money to create those jobs, and money to create jobs ain't on the menu unless there is some specific reason for it (such as:  the powerful want Keystone XL to go through; Keystone XL can't go through without pipe being laid; therefore somebody has to lay the pipe; therefore there have to be about 1,000 temporary jobs).

          Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:15:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the government can print money (2+ / 0-)

            See: Keynes, John

            The problem is breaking the ideological gridlock. The other sides' base has been convinced there's an economic rational for the divide but their strength is from the culture war. The solution is in the history books under FDR

            If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

            by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:43:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, but it's not just Republicans who are (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              congenitalefty, Noodles

              keeping this from happening. It's most of the Democratic party too. The ideological gridlock extends from center-left types like my congressman, Chris Van Hollen, all the way over to Paul Ryan. And it's worth considering the wealthy who are standing behind them influencing the conversation. FDR does have the answer, but FDR and the New Deal and Keynes are all verboten--at least as much in our party as anywhere else. And Obama is leading the way on that.

              How do you intend to deal with that? Is your idea that you will sell the Reagan Democrats on Keynes and thus pressure the Democratic party back in the right direction?

              Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:38:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  jobs jobs jobs (0+ / 0-)

                Just keep saying jobs jobs jobs and assume we've won all the culture war stuff. We haven't, there's miles to go, but take a page from the extremist right book and declare victory via settled moral high ground. Then say jobs. Don't mention Keynes, mention FDR if a candidate is feeling it. Obama's not running again. Shift the discussion to jobs all the time.

                If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

                by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:04:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  I'm refering to a recent study (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Armando, AoT

      no link sorry too lazy and harried but it was on the front page around here - that showed there was a reverse effect with light bulbs. If conservatives were just shopping just on cost effective they chose a certain light bulb, if the bulb was (accurately) labeled 'better for the environment' or 'save the planet' etc ... they bought the other one. The tribal tug of not giving the hippies any victories outweighed self interest.

      Another thing, and this has always been flame bait but here goes: retire the "one percent" thing. It was only ever preaching to the choir and some of us always found it annoying and not good meme starting. As Krugman pointed out the math points more at the .01 percent, a friend says it's about the 26 percent who got theirs and are afraid of losing it, and "Wall Street" says it much better. Remember the goal here is to chip off some of the right wing working class base (and I understand the phrase "working class" is not good advertising). Because without a significant electoral presence we'll never get anything real accomplished and without breaking through their tribal barriers the numbers are too depressing to realistically contemplate.

      If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

      by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:38:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, the right wing working class (6+ / 0-)

        seems to have gotten the idea that the government and the banks are working together in a corrupt way that screws over the working man.

        The 1% works fine for me--not with every audience, of course, but no meme works fine with everybody.
        It says something real, and people grasp it.  And I'm not sure what you mean by preaching to the choir, when there was a pretty eclectic group of people out at those encampments and events--everybody from Ron Paul supporters to left-wing Democrats to socialists to independents who weren't particularly political (in their minds anyway) but who had just lost their homes or their jobs.

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:19:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've watched Reagan Democrats laugh about it (0+ / 0-)

          all night long. "We are the 99 percent" when Occupy, for better or worse, read to them (and me FWIW) as the usual suspects.

          > Ron Paul supporters to left-wing Democrats to socialists

          See above. And there's nowhere near enough of that demographic to sway elections.

          If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

          by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:46:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, when the Reagan Democrats lose (5+ / 0-)

            their houses, they might feel differently about people trying to help them save their houses. Or maybe not.

            But we've been chasing "the Reagan Democrat" since they voted for Reagan, mostly by trying to sound conservative. And I don't see that at the end of the day that that's put us in a good position, as progressives. We have less power than we've ever had.

            I suggest advocating for the preservation of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, the creation of jobs, and making Wall St stop messing with people's mortgages--and hopefully bringing them to justice under the law. And hammering those points and sticking to them. If the Reagan Democrats don't come on board for that, they won't come on board for anything.

            Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:13:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

              > advocating for the preservation of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, the creation of jobs, and making Wall St stop messing with people's mortgages

              And stop there. We win the culture war stuff anyway down the road and reap maximum benefit from it already. Don't balance the budget on the backs of America's seniors. That's a message that could get into the weeds next year.

              If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

              by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:08:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  that said, on *specific* issues (6+ / 0-)

        like trying to sell lightbulbs to people, I don't mind dropping pro-environmental stuff off the label. But selling people lightbulbs is different from selling them politicians or policies.  We've tried since 1988 to sell them politicians and policies by muting anything that sounds like it could be a hippy or be related to a hippy, and it has landed us in the shit, pretty much, economically, ecologically, and politically.

        Also, it ain't 1988 anymore, and I don't see the point in seeking to please the people whose influence is dwindling because too many people alive now couldn't care less about hippies because hippies are some weird thing their grandparents used to be--or because too many people now couldn't care less about Communism or Socialism as a bogeyman, because the Cold War ended 24 years ago--or because there are a lot more black and brown people being born than white people. Historically and demographically, this particular ship has sailed. Hippie-baiting isn't a threat anywhere except within the Democratic party, where it's used as a way to keep lefties in line. Outside, where the voters live, most of them don't give a damn.

        what they do give a damn about is decent-paying jobs, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, healthcare and, if they have kids, education.

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:28:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  because I don't think waiting another 15 years (0+ / 0-)

          for the hoped for demographic shift is a good idea.

          I think the left of center could get on the street (not the idiot or far left mind you - I mean the style of the current elected Progressive caucus) with more moral credibility on economic issues now, I mean for 2014.

          If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

          by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:49:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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