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View Diary: Police arrest a man for videotaping/playing music ... then they shoot his dog. (161 comments)

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  •  There is a hole in your logic (12+ / 0-)

    If the arrest was unwarranted, then anything that results from that mistake is ultimately due to that mistake.  I hold the police to a higher standard precisely because they have the power to arrest and use force.  When they use those powers unwisely, it is their fault for whatever the bad consequences are.  Can a citizen influence the situation through their actions?  Sure, but I always put more responsibility for any interactions with citizens on the police and expect them to uphold strict standards.

    There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

    by slothlax on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 12:28:56 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The arrest was an overreaction (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      StrayCat

      However, the guy could have avoided the whole confrontation. So, why not start the blame there and say anything that followed was due to that mistake?

      There's a legal doctrine that's relevant here" "Last clear chance." Whoever had the last clear chance to avoid a tragedy bears responsibility.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 12:33:30 PM PDT

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      •  Your post makes no sense. None. (4+ / 0-)

        The police need a complete reboot. In a lawful system, this would not happen. The police broke the law. Your answer: blame the victim. Seriously, you don't make sense.

        A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

        by onionjim on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 01:22:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's the law -- and, then there's common sense (0+ / 0-)

          We could argue whether the police broke some law, but clearly this guy showed no common sense.  We all break some laws, but not necessarily showing no common sense. Part of that can be a lack of understanding and perspective.  What looks like senseless behavior from the outside maybe not so from the inside.

          I'll be accused of going off the rails here but I'll use, as an example, a racial/cultural stereotype that I've heard comedians note and that I've found has real basis in fact. Many of us jaywalk -- as a New Yorker, I'm a big offender -- but there are observable cultural differences. Whites tend to hurry across, and move more quickly when a car is rapidly approaching.  But, many blacks do not, especially in cities, as if they expect the cars to slow down for them. I'm not saying that either group acts one way or the other, but I'm not the only one to observe a stereotypical, generalizable difference. I don't know where that difference springs from -- it may be that because fewer African-Americans have driver's license, that we are observing folks who do less driving and are less fearful of cars, assuming, I'd say wrongly, that drivers can see them and will expect their slow march to continue. I can say that this behavior seems riskier to me, but I guess I can also see others saying it's actually riskier to run across the street because you might fall. Where does common sense lie?

          Here we have a situation where a black guy is determined to protect his neighbors and be vigilant about the police, instead of giving them the deference they generally expect. We could argue about which side is using common sense as the confrontation begins. Maybe, it's a cultural difference. From his perspective -- he's a concerned African-American doing some sacred duty to make sure the scene is recorded either to prevent the white police from acting badly or to record it if they do.  From their perspective -- the white police are trying to control the scene, and this guy is practically getting in their faces, in contrast to the other filmers. Not to mention he's got this Rotwiler. And, the music....

          You can argue that police did not use common sense -- and, because they have guns, it is incumbent on them to avoid situations that might escalate. But, on the other hand, they have guns and handcuffs and, to my mind, it is common sense to be at least somewhat respectful. To their minds, too.

          If you think he's blameless for his behavior and what ensued, then you have to explain why the kids filming him are constantly tittering their amazement at his actions, as they clearly think he's acting in a way that is risky and will not end well.  

          You may say he was within his rights, but I'm focusing on whether he used any common sense. Just because you're acting lawfully doesn't mean you are blameless. The law books are filled with stories of people who were acting lawfully until something terrible happened because they were acting stupidly -- negligently or even recklessly.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 02:15:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In all fairness, it's also easy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FischFry, Fieldswithoutfences

            to say that "it's common sense to be at least somewhat respectful" when one doesn't have to worry about being unfairly treated by police because of one's skin color.

            •  I do get that. (0+ / 0-)

              I mean, you can't look at this without a racial frame. Look at the fact of the guy filming. Because he's black, everyone assumes that he's tying to keep the cops honest -- presumably, the cops themselves saw that as antagonistic. Whereas if a white guy were doing the filming, he might be seen as a would-be newshound. I used to run with a camera when I herd fire engines around my street when I was a kid.

              Today, cameras are freighted with all kinds of meaning hey never used to have, but in this situation we all make the same assumptions about why and how everyone acted in this situation,. we come to that based on our impressions of what a black guy with a rotwiler would be doing and what white LA cops would be doing...but, add in our own racial perspectives, and that frame becomes multilayered.

              I might even suspect that we maybe watching different things. Once the dog comes out, my focus is on the dog, and I see what the cop does in reaction. Comments from others about what they observed suggest to me that others may be more focused on the interaction ongoing between the cops and the handcuffed dude....

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 03:19:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, yeah. (0+ / 0-)

                The fact of the matter is, considering the Hawthorn Police Department's recent history, it's entirely likely that what some see as the guy filming having been acting oppositional was caused by the fact that he figured the cops were going to come harass him because he was black.  

                I'm not necessarily saying it couldn't have been handled better.  I'm simply saying I think it's understandable that he responded the way he did, considering both the police department's history with those they're supposed to protect, and his own personal history with the department.

                Hell, now that I think about it, he may have even thought they were targeting him specifically because he had a lawsuit against them.

                As I say in every thread I end up posting in here about police issues, there's a reason N.W.A. wrote "Fuck the Police."

              •  Yeah, so it was his own fault that he didn't (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                futurebird, jfromga, pitbullgirl65, chase

                "respect their authoritah" so he (and we) should just STFU and accept the consequences.  Yet another case of the authoritarians coming out to defend the unjustified actions of the cops.  I bet you would say "he had it coming" had the officer decided to shoot the guy in the head.

                You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 05:56:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm tempted to HR that (0+ / 0-)

                  And I toss about one donut per year.

                  Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                  by FischFry on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:09:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well except for the last part that is exactly (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    futurebird

                    what you said.  After all, you did say "yeah but he had it coming".

                    You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                    by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:16:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Why it's what you said. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    pitbullgirl65

                    And also black people jaywalk more slowly? Really?

                    My jaw hit the floor at how racist that was.

                    •  It's not what I said. (0+ / 0-)

                      It's not even close to what I said...and even THrow hte Bums Out acknowledged that.

                      As for your other observation - about the jaywaking reference I made -- I have to respond.

                      I was clear about the jaywalking bit, that I was referencing an observation that I've heard numerous comedians make. Not that it matters, but I've heard this from both white and black comedians, but mostly black comedians. It's a comedic observation and obviously a stereotype, as I made very clear in the comment, but it might reflect cultural difference predicated on different experiences.

                      I wasn't saying it's true or not, and I said it certainly wouldn't be universally true even if there were some truth to it -- But, as I wrote, I was offering it up as an example of something where what seems like a common sense way to act (or lack thereof) to one group of people might not be how another group acts and may not seem like common sense to them....all down to different experiences.

                      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                      by FischFry on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 05:14:08 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Just STFU (0+ / 0-)

                        Your concern is duly noted. Keep whiteknighting for the police.
                        L.E has a history of violence against POC and for you to whitesplain it ( black ppl jaywalk differently?! what the hell is wrong with you?) shows your ignorance and privilege.

                        Of course I shouldn't be surprised: it's the Daily Kos. Some of you get your knickers in a twist when cops are demonized, or when your racist, sexist, classism is pointed out to you

                        "Growing your own food is like growing your own money" Ron Finley guerilla gardener extraordinaire. http://ronfinley.com/

                        by pitbullgirl65 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 07:01:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  One nore time (0+ / 0-)

                          I wasn't endorsing it as a fact -- I was fishing for a trivial example of how different groups might act quite normally in ways that seem nonsensical to others -- and remembered this notion that I've heard more than a couple of well-known comedians make, and one that I thought might draw a knowing chuckle.  

                          I wasn't whitesplaining anything, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. Nor was I defending violence against POC, and it makes no sense to suggest that because we were discussing an incident where a dog was shot.

                          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                          by FischFry on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 10:22:11 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  kneel before Zod (0+ / 0-)

            because that way Zod won't kill you or your dog or your kid carrying his puppy home or whatever.   The police are to serve and protect the people, not terrorize them, abuse them and shoot their dogs after they have bullied someone.

      •  Again, they were objecting to him RECORDING... (4+ / 0-)

        ...THEM IN PUBLIC.

        Courts have ruled over and over again that you don't have any expectation of privacy standing in a public street, why do those fuktwits feel they're so fucken special that they can harrass citizens who are keeping an eye on them?

        "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

        by leftykook on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 01:24:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again.... (0+ / 0-)

          I didn't make this point, but others did -- he wasn't the only one filming, but he's the one whose actions led him into confrontation with the police.

          They were clearly dealing with what they perceived as a real situation, given the size of the police  response there -- and there's this jerk who not only thinks he's the self-appointed watchdog on the police, but is parading his rotwiler around, isn't keeping a respectful distance and is  blaring music from his car as if this was some entertainment spectacle/street party. And, this jerk refuses to turn down his music....

          Also, courts have never held you have no expectation of privacy on a public street -- they've just ruled that the police may briefly stop you and even frisk you if they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 01:46:48 PM PDT

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      •  That attitude is the problem (0+ / 0-)

        The police are an instrument of accountability, but whenever they do wrong their refuse to accept accountability for they own actions.  We are either supposed to sweep their misconduct under the carpet out of some kind of deference to the difficulty of their job or they blame the victim, but somehow no police officer ever seems to just say, "Hey, I overreacted and next time I will conduct myself in a more controlled way."  They aren't perfect, I don't expect them to be, but I do expect people who are given as much power in our society as the police to be accountable for their use of that power.  For people who are supposed to be brave and honorable men and women, I find police officers to be quite thin skinned.

        There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

        by slothlax on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 11:11:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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