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View Diary: Fact Checking Josh Fox/Gasland #2; Oil/Gas Industry NOT Exempt from Clean Air/Clean Water Acts (133 comments)

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  •  Thank you, CharlesII (6+ / 0-)

    Sad to see another of these industry propaganda diaries. I wonder who is paying for them? Not that it really matters.

    "Societies strain harder and harder to sustain the decadent opulence of the ruling class, even as it destroys the foundations of productivity and wealth." — Chris Hedges

    by Crider on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:37:30 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  My diary does not have anything to do (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkmich, Adam AZ, dgb3

      with industry propaganda.

    •  No one is paying me to write diaries. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Adam AZ
      •  Tell us, are you employed in the field? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chinton

        Does your job depend on fracking continuing as it has?

        If it does, then in a roundabout way, you are being paid. Not directly, so you have "plausible deniability" but you may as well be being paid.

        Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

        by splashy on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 01:21:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's called "flyspecking" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Willinois, Crider

      I don't have any idea what's in Lake Superior's head, whether he's an industry person or just someone profoundly misguided. I'm not a mind reader.

      What I do know is that Gasland is the only reason that there is any public awareness about the issues around fracking. I don't doubt that it contains errors. But Lake Superior's claims are, at best, misleading. And they are of the nature of flyspecking, that is detracting from the larger and more important message by caviling about details.

      He has, for example, drawn a false distinction between what gets injected and surface water. Crap gets injected into wells and can contaminate ground water. Contaminated water backflows onto the surface. That can contaminate surface water. Flowback sometimes gets disposed of by injection. That can contaminate ground water.

      In other words, surface water may be injected, and what has been injected may wind up in surface water.  And frackers have gotten an exemption written into the Clean Water Act regarding injection of fluids though a Dick Cheney-sponsored bit of legislation, Public Law 58-109. This is dangerous. That's what really matters--public health. Sure, let the exact means by which the public health is threatened be accurately stated. But the statement is secondary to the danger.  

      I am all in favor of accuracy in activism. But well-intentioned efforts to correct errors start by acknowledging the good part of what another has done. Ill-intentioned efforts denigrate and debase, without acknowledging the contributions of others. Gasland has been very important in forcing a re-examination of fracking. Flyspecking it is, in my view, contemptible.

      •  You said: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SolarMom
        But Lake Superior's claims are, at best, misleading
        You like to toss that around without saying exactly what is erroneous and what is misleading about the claims in my diary.
        He has, for example, drawn a false distinction between what gets injected and surface water.
        I've done no such thing.  Surface water discharges, groundwater discharges/subsurface discharges are different physical phenomena regulated by different statutes under different types of regulatory authority.  Making distinctions between different types of discharge is an absolutely essential part of the environmental analysis brought to these issues.  Not making such distinctions is erroneous technical review.

        Further, there is absolutely no basis to consider or expect that subsurface injection of hydraulic fracturing fluid or produced water thousands of feet underground causes, or is likely to cause, any kind of surface water discharge of process wastewater at all.

        Your claim that such deep underground injection causes surface water discharges and that this is what actually occurs in oil and gas operations is completely without any foundation or basis -- junk science, just like Gasland.

        You said:

        And frackers have gotten an exemption written into the Clean Water Act regarding injection of fluids though a Dick Cheney-sponsored bit of legislation, Public Law 58-109. This is dangerous. That's what really matters--public health. Sure, let the exact means by which the public health is threatened be accurately stated. But the statement is secondary to the danger.
        Just because you say that this is "dangerous" does not mean that is, in fact, true.   Your 'dangerous' risk assessment has no physical transport path basis that addresses how human exposure can occur from underground injection.  
        •  You seem to think there's no cracks in underground (0+ / 0-)

          rock formations.  And concrete well casings never crack.  There are, and they absolutely do.  That's a fact.

          http://www.bloomberg.com/...

          Chemically treated drilling fluid can migrate through thousands of feet of rock and endanger water supplies, said a hydrologist whose research calls into question the safety of hydraulic fracturing for natural gas.

          The fluids can migrate faster that previously thought, Tom Myers, a Reno, Nevada, researcher, said yesterday. His study, published in the online journal Ground Water on April 17, says fluids can reach shallow drinking-water aquifers in as little as three years.

          •  If my memory is correct, that particular study (0+ / 0-)

            is the one which used coefficients of hydraulic conductivity describing the media being modeled [as assumed for the purposes of carrying out the model calculation] as being dramatically more porous than it actually is.

            •  I don't give a shit. (0+ / 0-)

              I don't care about exactly how porous every inch of rock in the US is.  Keep the goddamn chemicals out of everyone's water.  

              I know your customers make a mountain of money poisoning us to pay you to act willfully ignorant, but have a brain.

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