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View Diary: It's Time to Describe ALEC as a "Conspiracy" and a "National Shadow Government" (98 comments)

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    •  You are linking Alec with the Nazis ? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emelyn

      Or is this link to a movie about the planing for killing the Jews just to show some point ?

      The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

      by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:37:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  At This Point It Is A Possibility (28+ / 0-)

        Sure we occasionally see Goober candidates turn out to be Nazi SS reenactors.  And then there is billionaire and Romney fund raiser Harlen Crow who doesn't just collect Nazi memorabilia, he collects Hitler's personal possessions. And Crow has a whole gallery devoted to famous dictators.

        But Crow is part of the larger group of what seem to be self described Nietzschean supermen such as "The Family" and John Hagee, who have proclaimed their admiration of Hitler and Mao.   After all that  is only a hop skip and a jump from Ayn Rands heroes.

        This belief in their own moral code, determinist destiny, and crackpot writing also makes me wonder whether there is not some hidden book of revealed truth they are working from.  It's very likely the Kochs have a whole bookcase of 1930s American Fascist manifestos they got from dear old Dad. Before he helped found the John Birch Society, was Koch backing the German American Bund?

        That's just speculation, but here's something to think about - the ALEC agenda is eerily like the three legs of the National Socialist reengineering of German civil society:

        1) Crush the unions via the 1933 Enabling Act  to choke off support for the Social Democrats (Right to Work, eh?)
        2) Regulate marriage with the 1935 Nuremberg Laws (DOMA anyone?)
        3) Abolish local governments in 1935

           ....under pressure from the Reich Interior Ministry under the Nazi Wilhelm Frick, a new law abolished all the federated states, from Prussia downwards, along with their governments and parliaments, and merged their Ministries into the corresponding Reich Ministries. Thus the federal constitution which inone form had characterized the German political system for over a thousand years, and was to do so again after 1945, was swept away. Characteristically, however, some elements of federalism remained, so the process of dissolution was incomplete. The Party Regional Leaders retained their position as regional Reich Governors, and continued to occupy powerful positions within the Party hierarchy. They wielded considerable influence over local and regional affairs, though here the Reich Local Government Law of 1935, in abolishing local elections, placed the appointment of mayors largely within the competence of the Interior Ministry in Berlin. This in turn aroused the hostility of the District Leaders (Kreisleiter) of the Party, who often exploited the right of participation accorded them by the law in the appointment of local officials to interfere in local government and place their cronies and clients in offices for which they were often quite unsuited.
            Richard J. Evans, The Third Reich In Power

        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

        by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:19:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you are saying Alec is like the Nazis (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          emelyn, Mindtrain

          when the Nazis planned to kill the Jews via "Final Solution" ?

          Holocaust , no matter how bad Alec is , I doubt its in the same ball park as .

          The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

          by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:59:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How bad does bad have to be? (33+ / 0-)

            Forget Godwin's Law for the moment. Would you be happier comparing ALEC to Stalin, Pol Pot? How about comparing them to the secessionists who totally rejected the idea of a United States and tried to go their own way in the world 150 years ago. Does a society based on a ruling propertied elite sitting atop a vast mass of impoverished 'free' men and slaves seem more fitting? Would it make any real difference?

            This isn't a contest about who is really evil; ALEC's agenda is more than bad enough to stand on its own in the pantheon of bad things.

            Also, there's this little problem with disregarding comparisons to Hitler - sometimes it actually IS appropriate. And there is always the possibility that someone will go out of their way to surpass Hitler. Corporatism and National Socialism have more than a few similarities.

            We may not have as big a problem with Jews as many Germans did back then - but there's plenty of racism and religious bigotry in America to go around cultivating for political gain. Look at who fills the vast majority of our prisons. Look at who is attacking the social safety net, and why. Look at who is doing so, and follow the money. You'll find ALEC's dirty little fingerprints all over this.

            "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

            by xaxnar on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:16:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And If This Were A Fascism Diary (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xaxnar, elwior, blueoasis

              ....you'd see this, as I mentioned in a diary that Indycam no doubt read:

              If you want to see diaries  where someone consistently posts (a negative) first comment then blathers for about a dozen comments, check out any Fascism diary over the last 5 or 6 years.  Why? It's various people, some of the banned, so I have no idea what gets them going.  But that  nattering wasn't limited to the recent Nazi pie fight.

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:27:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Playing fast and loose with The Holocaust (0+ / 0-)

                is something most people are revolted by .
                You posted a movie about the planning of the Holocaust in a diary about Alec .
                And you have said it was on purpose .
                That is offensive .

                The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:43:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Fast and loose? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  elwior

                  Denying this shit is a certain path to something that makes the Holocaust look like child's play. The technology is there to bring about something beyond Hitler's twisted imagination.

                  The Nazis weren't talking about exterminating the Jews.  They were scapegoating and re-educating them.  Most Germans had no idea that it was even happening like it was; most didn't want to believe it just like you don't want to believe WHAT IS RIGHT THE F^(k IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE.

                  The meek shall inherit the Earth that the stupid destroyed.

                  by CharlieHipHop on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:57:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Way out of bonds - - without being wrong; (0+ / 0-)

                    We can all agree we are on the path that leads to tremendous suffering, pain and death (how many have already died b/c of lack of medical care?) and we are already on the path of scapegoating and marginalizing certain groups.

                    But to say that what we are heading toward "makes the holocaust look like child's play" is insulting to those that went through the actual holocaust put on trains, starved and gassed.  Could something monstrous happen, yes. Could it make it look like "childs play" - nothing could, what happened then will never look like "child's play" - it will always be remembered as one of the ugliest pieces of human history.

                    There is no excuse whatsoever to accuse someone of believing everything is ok and especially tell them they don't want to believe "something is right the f""k in front of your face" - even if you are ultimately or currently right, that statement is deliberately aggressive to the point of "and I don't want to hear an opinion otherwise" while also establishing you are that much better than others. Make your point without a playground insult without the junior high mentality - like 99% of the people around here do. (See lunachikie's excellent comment making the same point below).

                    Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick: The "party of Jesus" wouldn't invite him to their convention - fearing his "platform."

                    by 4CasandChlo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:00:38 PM PDT

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                    •  Are you absolutely sure nothing could? Remember (0+ / 0-)

                      the calls for the genocide of all muslims that were going out from several pundits after 9/11?  Well if that were to actually happen (which it could, though the country would have to move hard right and then there would have to be a terrorist attack) it would mean targeting 1.6 billion people for genocide.

                      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                      by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:35:53 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  As I said: (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        elwior, jplanner

                        Could something monstrous happen again? Yes.

                        I actually meant to infer it could be the same, worse, whatever.

                        Whatever happen does not mean the holocaust is "child's play" even if the US decided to destroy half a billion people - it does not mean the holocaust was "child's play" which I think is pretty insensitive to those victims and I think the term was used to get a cheap shot in.

                        I specifically said IN THE TITLE "way out of bounds without being wrong" meaning I agree factually it could be bad or worse - - I have a HUGE problem with the "truth" being "right in front of your F*cking face" - - yeah, I have a huge problem with that kind of statement, regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

                        I come here to learn and share opinions, it is not meant to be an echo chamber, I like nothing more than to have to reconsider my opinion b/c of something someone said about mine - - and b/c of that, I am going to call "out of bounds" to everyone that seems to be unable to disagree without direct insults because once someone throws out an insult to the people here, I couldn't care less about their point. Right or wrong - as I said in the title.

                        I just read a diary where someone called someone's sincere comment "funny" and "cute" in how wrong it was. It is getting more and more prevalent and it pisses me off.

                        Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick: The "party of Jesus" wouldn't invite him to their convention - fearing his "platform."

                        by 4CasandChlo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:57:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I am sure a genocide of Holocaust (0+ / 0-)

                        proportions would not happen here, now, led by the Right.
                        Period.

                        There is a very vocal opposition that is strong enough to elect a President two terms in a row. We dont' have to go farther than that.

                        Since most people see that, we can only conclude that you are playing fast and loose with the genoside of the Jews in the Holocaust in using that reference.

                        •  I wouldn't be so sure, if the country goes into (0+ / 0-)

                          default and there end up being huge food shortages and constant blackouts because the dollar is pretty much worthless that could easily be enough for the far right to take over.  To insist that it could never happen in America no matter what because we are so special is just plain silly.

                          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                          by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:57:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Fast and loose . (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jplanner
                    Denying this shit is a certain path to something that makes the Holocaust look like child's play.

                    alec is going to do something to make the "Holocaust look like child's play" ?
                     "the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews"
                    What could they possibly do to make the genocide of approximately six million human beings look like "child's play" ?

                    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                    by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:10:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                      And I don't mean to diminish the horror of the Holocaust in any way.  But it would look like child's play compared to what is technically possible now.

                      Think about that.

                      The meek shall inherit the Earth that the stupid destroyed.

                      by CharlieHipHop on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:09:06 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Have you watched the movie he linked to ? (0+ / 0-)
              We may not have as big a problem with Jews as many Germans did back then
              If not , I suggest you watch it and then think about what is being said re nazis and alec .

              The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

              by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:37:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The point is, there are always scapegoats (4+ / 0-)

                Even if they have to be manufactured. Authoritarians define themselves and maintain group identity by having officially designated enemies.

                Mind you, the critical difference is that scapegoats are targeted to substitute for and distract away from the real causes of misfortune. The Koch brothers are perfectly happy to fund astroturf groups which go after whatever scapegoats are most convenient for their goals.

                If you look at Wisconsin, the state employee unions and teachers are among those being targeted - very effectively too, judging by the legislative results and at the voting booths to date.

                "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

                by xaxnar on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:58:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Godwin (8+ / 0-)

              was just another guy with an online opinion. He was the first legal counsel for EFF (iirc), he wasn't in Congress making Laws.

              I really, seriously tire of that "Law". We're adults having a discussion, we are not children whose speech or ideas need to be directed by self-appointed censors.  

              Also, there's this little problem with disregarding comparisons to Hitler - sometimes it actually IS appropriate. And there is always the possibility that someone will go out of their way to surpass Hitler. Corporatism and National Socialism have more than a few similarities.
              It is time for us to stop apologizing for making note of some parallels in history, particularly if we ourselves were not responsible for the making of that history.
              •  Indycam Is Rather Obsessed With Me (0+ / 0-)

                ....probably because of the diaries I've written.. She's looking for "proof" of that awful nameless something.  Nobody knows what it is but it must be pretty terrible.

                I've been writing diaries on Fascism for more than 5 years, including this contribution to the recent "Fascism" pie fight We Should Not Redefine "Fascism" - Fascism Super Meta Diary

                There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:44:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We first met , iirc , over guns , (0+ / 0-)

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...
                  I'm sure you will recall .

                  Indycam Is Rather Obsessed With Me
                  Another interesting thing said by you .
                  ...probably because of the diaries I've written.. She's looking for "proof" of that awful nameless something.  Nobody knows what it is but it must be pretty terrible.
                  Its not the diaries , its the abuse , the abuse of people and the truth .

                  The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                  by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:47:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Have you watched the movie he linked to ? (0+ / 0-)

                Are you OK with the idea of putting alec at the same level as a group of nazis planning genocide against the Jews ?

                Its absurd to put them together in my opinion ,
                there is no equivalence at all between alec and the genocide carried out Germans .

                http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                Conspiracy (2001 film)
                Conspiracy is a BBC/HBO television film which dramatizes the 1942 Wannsee Conference. The film delves into the psychology of Nazi officials involved in the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" during World War II.
                http://www.imdb.com/...
                A dramatic recreation of the Wannsee Conference where the Nazi Final Solution phase of the Holocaust was devised.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/...
                Wannsee Conference
                The Wannsee Conference was a meeting of senior officials of the Nazi German regime, held in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee on 20 January 1942. The purpose of the conference was to inform administrative leaders of Departments responsible for various policies relating to Jews that Reinhard Heydrich had been appointed as the chief executor of the "Final solution to the Jewish question".

                The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                by indycam on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:03:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You clearly didn't (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  elwior

                  grasp what I said the first time:

                  It is time for us to stop apologizing for making note of some parallels in history, particularly if we ourselves were not responsible for the making of that history.
                  What I think or don't think of some other post is not relevant to my comment. My comment was about that ridiculous "Godwins Law". Are you or are you not invoking it right now in your comments?

                   

          •  Surely you know that Eliminationists (15+ / 0-)

            abound in the right-wing and current Republican establishments. "It can't happen here" -- well, neither can the Panopticon which our government has put in place. But there it is.


            Actual Democrats is the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats

            by Jim P on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:38:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Same Propaganda Methods, Appeal To Same Instincts (6+ / 0-)

              And it makes me a little queasy to suggest using the dialectic technique of stealing an opposition talking point, we know we'll only use it for good. Right?

              There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

              by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 01:01:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It ain't about talking points, it's talking (5+ / 0-)

                about reality. What the right is engaged in is clearly a conspiracy. I don't have the link but a brilliant article a few years ago reminded that when our government was founded, and our leaders were warning against factionalism and Treason, they had in mind the experience of England the previous generations. Where factions conspired in relative secrecy to gain control of government.

                That is entirely what ALEC and the rest are about. This is not about tin-foil hats and lizard people (well, not literal lizard people) but about a small faction trying to gain absolute power, and no sane and informed person can deny it.

                 


                Actual Democrats is the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats

                by Jim P on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:07:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's About Overcoming Their DARVO Strategy (5+ / 0-)

                  DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender) is frequently used by abusers to gain sympathy and get others to attack their victim.

                  A conman or sociopath always claims they are saving us from some threat that only they can see.

                  The Nazis spent 15 years accusing the jews of being genocidal maniacs, and all their screeching drowned out anyone who would have been impolite enough to point out that the Nazis were the genocidal maniacs. The Nazis said they were saving us.  

                  Likewise, the KKK has always claimed they are fighting racism.

                   Likewise the people who have the greatest hatred of the Constitution will be the one screeching the loudest about "protecting" it.

                  There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

                  by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:52:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  The Dominionist are... (5+ / 0-)

              the most radical and dangerous element of the right wing swamp.  It's not a run of the mill mob of ranting fundamental christianist, they are well funded by some powerful people - Mr. Prince of Blackwater fame with his own army for one. - that army is hundreds of times larger than the Family on the hill and comes complete with a full armory.  They have "steeple jacked" most of the Assemble of God churches ( princess palin's church of choice) giving them a veneer of "christian goodness"
              They're scum.

              "If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them. Isaac Asimov (8.25 / -5.64}

              by carver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 03:50:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  That last sounds like what they have been doing (0+ / 0-)

          In Michigan in so many cities, with the Emergency Managers who just take over the town and cities that are mostly people of color.

          Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

          by splashy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:27:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Adam Smith said it best: (19+ / 0-)
      We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate.

      The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, And wretches hang, that jurymen may dine.

      by magnetics on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:30:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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