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View Diary: Close NSA vote in House has results: Intelligence committees reviewing options (62 comments)

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  •  yes they are storing content (2+ / 0-)
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    CroneWit, atana

    so many references to it yet we keep seeing the 'metadata' word used as if it was the worst thing ever...and meant to distract and confuse in a Frank Luntzian effort imo.

    The search for the content may be done with a warrant by a human after being searched by the Machine..without a warrant I betcha..

    The 'metadata' is revealing and important but it's the content that is the biggie and the arguments about it are revealing..

    This machine kills Fascists.

    by KenBee on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 03:44:36 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Ken, I got a letter from my Senator today (1+ / 0-)
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      CroneWit

      ...in which he states that the NSA is not storing content of phone calls. How do I convince him that they are?

      If you parse articles carefully, what is claimed is a little murky and there are legal issues at stake. The legal standards for privacy are complicated, and every bit of nuance matters.

      As far as I know, William Binney (reported here by James Bamford) is the single source for claiming that phone conversations are being stored. That's evidently not enough to convince my Senator.

      •  Guardian says so.. (0+ / 0-)

        linked often, for just one....and when convenient politicians especially get to use words very generally or very specifically depending on how ass covering their parseing needs to be...'the NSA'..well, for example, ok, maybe true, another agency or private contractor maybe does the actual 'storing'..I trust nothing any of these people say, nothing.

        This machine kills Fascists.

        by KenBee on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 04:17:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  CharlesII, what substantiation would your Senator (0+ / 0-)

        accept?

        I know I've seen & quoted/linked this info in a comment or two -- but finding this might be slow.

        Here's a bit from Bamford's new book that mentions it --

        http://www.nybooks.com/...

        But the documents released by Edward Snowden show that the NSA does have a large-scale program to gather the telephone records of every Verizon customer, including local calls, and presumably a similar agreement with AT&T and other companies. These are records of who called whom and when, not of the content of the conversations, although the NSA has, by other methods, access to the content of conversations as well. But the NSA has, on a daily basis, access to virtually everyone’s phone records, whether cell or landline, and can store, data-mine, and keep them indefinitely.

        This might also have been covered in WaPo's most recent document release, bu tI can't recall for certain.

        Also, it may be that the contractors are 'holding/storing', thus giving NSA a way to say 'we do not store content'.

        I'll try to find this an dkosmail you.

        •  Thanks, Cronewit! (1+ / 0-)
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          CroneWit

          Great point about the contractors perhaps holding/storing. That would be an example of playing semantic games to technically tell the truth but actually lie.

          The quote you give illustrates the problem. The Verizon program gathers metadata. But "by other methods" it has access to content, according to Bamford.

          What are the "other methods"? It may refer to Binney's "Stellar Wind" revelations or to the Narus revelations by Mark Klein in Hepting v. AT&T (which may be part of UPSTREAM that Bamford describes). The article you link mentions Greenwald and the FISA opinion, although that is less clear and definitely unclear as to what "methods."  

          An additional problem is that Senators think that programs have been shut down when they may not have been. Ron Wyden just gave an interview congratulating himself on stopping the NSA from reading e-mail. I really doubt that is true, but of course don't know.

          In order to persuade my Senator to question his assumptions, I would probably have to be able to name the NSA program, state whether it is collecting and storing the content of domestic phone calls, and provide media sources to show that the program is current.  

          •  PS on Wyden article (1+ / 0-)
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            CharlesII

            Just as I hit 'post', a thought occurred to me --

            In the article you linked, Wyden says Obama Admin told him (or a group? if so who?) they shut down the email operation a couple of weeks before that interview . . . .

            . . . . don't you think that should have made the news?

            For us commoners, I mean.  If Obama Admin had shut this down, why didn't hey announce it?  Wyden is obviously careful (in the article) not to reveal classified info, so if he said this so clearly it must not be classified.  And if it's not classified, why wasn't it made public?  Even if it was spin (and Wyden was naively credulous), why didn't they use this as part of their attempt to block Amash/Conyers?

            Smells fishy to me.  

          •  CharlesII, I lost a comment (1+ / 0-)
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            CharlesII

            before the 'PS' below.  Which is a bummer.  But it's getting really late and I have to quit now.  Check your kosmail for a couple of tidbits.  Thanks for the Wyden link.  I'll keep an eye out for more/better sources.  Hope I can be of help.

            RE: Wyden stopping email. (A very irresponsible headline, imo).  Have closed that link, so cna't quote, but Wyden said that 'Obama Admin said they had stopped email.  Them 'saying' and 'telling the truth' are not always the same.

            Sorry, really tired now.  Glad to help as I can.

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