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View Diary: NYT Lead: House Dems “Increasingly Unified” As “Momentum Builds Against N.S.A. Surveillance” (295 comments)

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  •  I'm for this as well (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gooderservice, Mr Robert, CroneWit

    but I also find this deeply troubling:

    Greenwald explained that while there are “legal constraints” on surveillance that require approval by the FISA court, these programs still allow analysts to search through data with little court approval or supervision.

    “There are legal constraints for how you can spy on Americans,” Greenwald said. “You can’t target them without going to the FISA court. But these systems allow analysts to listen to whatever emails they want, whatever telephone calls, browsing histories, Microsoft Word documents.”

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

    by greenbastard on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 08:33:48 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Police often carry slim-jims to open car doors. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Reggid, Lying eyes, Tony Situ, Fogiv

      By Greenwald's formulation, "There are legal constraints on how you can get into locked cars. You can't open a car door without a warrant, or emergency circumstances. But this tool allows police to open whatever car doors they want."

      Or, about ambulance drivers having sirens and lights:

      "There are legal constrains on how you can use a siren to make traffic get out of your way...But this equipment allows ambulance drivers to make cars pull over whenever they want."

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:10:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I find your analogies lacking (4+ / 0-)

        can a slim jim bypass an alarm? a coded lock? etc

        even still, I find the analogy lacking because if they stole your car you'd know, but not the info they have access to:

        what snowden and greenwald have brought forward is that

        "these systems allow analysts to listen to whatever emails they want, whatever telephone calls, browsing histories, Microsoft Word documents."

        and there is little to no oversight. Audits are rare.

        Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

        by greenbastard on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:19:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The analogy is only about Greenwald's point. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Reggid, Lying eyes, Tony Situ, Fogiv, CroneWit

          He was making a narrow point about the difference between legal barriers and practical capabilities, and I was pointing out that we constantly use legal barriers to restrict the government from doing what it has the practical capability to do.

          I actually agree with you about process and oversight, but when you get to a discussion about process and the desirability of oversight, you're recognizing that the government will have the practical capability to do something, and that you're using a set of procedural and legal safeguards to limit it.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:33:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  for me the data collection overall is (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gooderservice, TheMomCat, CroneWit

            problematic on a practical scale, cost, and potential for abuse, let alone the current system as it is, with the dubious twisting of letter of the law which, supposedly allows such and the general lack of accountability.

            Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

            by greenbastard on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:40:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  "Allows them to do" versus "are doing" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lying eyes

      Yes, the programs have the potential capability to eavesdrop on all calls and emails (which we know, since eavesdropping on targets' calls is kind of the entire point of the system); the distinction is whether it is actually being done without a warrant on Americans, as Greenwald and many of these similar diaries strongly imply, and whether there are any additional safeguards which may be put in place to limit the potential for abuse.

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