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View Diary: Assassinations, Intimidation, Psychological Warfare, Misinformation, And Other Illegal Tactics (206 comments)

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  •  Here's what you don't seem to get, Ray (7+ / 0-)
    The data collection and dossier-building on hundreds of millions of Americans needs to stop. The militarization of police forces needs to end.  All collected data needs to be destroyed.  The revolving-door corruption that has created a veritable Corporate/Security State Frankenstein needs to be smashed, and replaced with a firm wall of separation between profit-seeking corporatist hucksters and those who are entrusted to protect and serve and to defend the Constitution.
    No one disagrees with this paragraph. NO ONE.

    Where we disagree is in whether or not your plan to achieve this goal (not described in this diary, btw) is the best, or indeed the only way to accomplish this goal.

    I think the plans you have proposed to dismantle the current system will invariably lead to something worse popping up in its place.  And if that were the ONLY way to get rid of the current system- suffering through something worse first- I'd go along.

    But I don't believe it is.  I believe change is possible through the current system- with the correct strategy, and the correct strategy requires people like you to take a good long look at themselves, and admit the part they played in getting this country to where it is today.

    And you're not willing to do that- you'd rather call me names like "apologist".  And that is why you'll fail.

    "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

    by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 08:05:03 AM PDT

    •  The current system has been rolling along (12+ / 0-)

      since World War II.  The bipartisan strategy has been to keep filling it with gas and to keep increasing it's speed.  

      I have no clue what you think the correct strategy is to change a system that is so deeply established?  

      It's not a kitchen table issue so it's very hard to mobilize persistent opposition to this system.   Secrecy makes it exponentially more difficult to attack which is of course the real reason for the secrecy!  The secrecy defends the SYSTEM not the people.  

      The people who are most skeptical are those on the left and right who are always most skeptical of government.  The people who feed this system are the ones who go along to get along.  More and better.  More of the same.  More status quo.  More lesser evil.  More look the other way.  Change we can believe in because we are willing to believe a lie.

      •  'What is the correct strategy?' is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenbell

        the biggest question we're facing.  Most of the answers I've seen either involve Underpants Gnomes or a Forceful Explanation That Your Strategy Is Incorrect.

        "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

        by GussieFN on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 08:29:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  For starters (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        highacidity, kalmoth

        abandoning nonsense tropes like these:

        The people who feed this system are the ones who go along to get along.  More and better.  More of the same.  More status quo.  More lesser evil.  More look the other way.  Change we can believe in because we are willing to believe a lie
        I have no clue what you think the correct strategy is to change a system that is so deeply established?
        Well, first abandon all the silliness that I blockquoted above.  Second, learn a little patience- the system only began to malfunction in the 70's- but that's still forty years of being gradually steered off course- that's not going to be fixed overnight.

        And third, which is where it generally goes wrong for liberals- look in the mirror, understand and admit how your responses have continually and incrementally pushed the Democratic party right for forty years.  And then change your responses.

        It really is just that simple: since the 1970's, liberals have been abandoning Democrats they should've championed because said Democrats did not go far enough left, fast enough to suit them (no matter that going that far left was impossible the vast majority of the time).

        Stop abandoning Democrats for not going left enough fast enough (because history, reason and logic all demonstrate that all that does is move the party right), and start championing Democrats for moving left at all- and they'll move left.

        But you all need to understand that it will take time. This is a strategy that will need to be enacted for at least 20 years to gradually steer the Democratic party first back to the middle, and then increasingly left.

        But there's nothing else that's viable.  It's either this, or collapse, or revolution- both of which will be far worse than the things you complain about today.

        "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

        by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 09:03:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  liberals...pushed the Democratic party right? (9+ / 0-)

          Hilarious.

          So you'r saying, that because certain liberals felt their interests were not represented by the party, that the party moved further right?

          Why didn't the party simply represent the left better and move to the left?

          I reject your premise.

          Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

          by greenbastard on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 09:22:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and just so we are clear (9+ / 0-)

            money, power and the status quo are what are moving the democratic party to the right!

            Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

            by greenbastard on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 09:23:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  That rightward pull was $$$ and had nothing to (7+ / 0-)

            do with people. MONEY is god to these people.  Always follow the money.

            Obama: self-described Republican; backed up by right-wing policies

            by The Dead Man on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 10:18:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hilarious is the word for it (8+ / 0-)

            In other words, because we didn't move to the right along with the rest of the party, we caused it!

            Talk about circular, self-fulfilling logic. So if we had supported the more conservative dems, the party would have not been filled with more conservative dems?

            HAHA. Obviously we didn't leave the party, it left us.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 10:40:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The party left you (0+ / 0-)

              because of your poor attitude and lack of support for it.

              It will continue to move right until you face that and adjust your attitude accordingly.

              "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

              by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 12:13:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ha (6+ / 0-)

                Well, I find it difficult to support war crimes, perpetual war, torture of political prisoners, murder of civilians, a creeping totalitarian surveillance state, and complicity with Wall Street's continued extraction of wealth from the working class.

                I guess I'm hopelessly flawed that way.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 12:17:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Then dont be surprised (0+ / 0-)

                  when those things become even worse as a direct result of your actions.

                  There's a word for claiming not to support things, while at the same time performing actions that further those things..what was it..starts with "h", I think....

                  "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

                  by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 12:19:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You have this backwards (8+ / 0-)

                    Not supporting draconian polices actually creates them? And to disagree with that absurdity is hypocrisy?

                    Orwell is turning in his grave. War is peace!

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 12:43:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Electing Republicans (0+ / 0-)

                      creates them.

                      Abandoning Democrats not only elects Republicans, it convinces the Democratic party that Republican policies is what the electorate wants thus, moving the party right.

                      Not supporting Democrats is the direct cause of EVERY single thing you complain about.  History, reason and logic all demonstrate this.

                      And yet you'll still cling to the abandonment strategy that has failed so miserably for 40+ years.

                      Which would be fine if you weren't whining about the direct consequences of said strategy- what was that "h" word about people who complain about the direct consequences of their own actions?

                      Or that "I" word- about people who do the same thing over and over again, but expect different results....

                      "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

                      by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 05:07:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  There's a word for your arguments, that word (4+ / 0-)

                    is "nonsense", "illogic" also fits. If many persons are beating drums, those elsewhere sitting quietly are not the ones making the noise and they also are not causing the others to do so.

                    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                    by enhydra lutris on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 03:14:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I find it difficult to support those things also. (4+ / 0-)
                  •  That you don't understand that (0+ / 0-)

                    you ARE supporting them through your actions is why you're going to fail, Ray.

                    The party will continue to go right until liberals understand and accept how they are driving the party right, and change their behavior accordingly.

                    "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

                    by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 05:13:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  You can reject the sky being blue for all I care (0+ / 0-)

            Wont make the sky any less blue or me any less right.

            The party did not move to the left, because every time liberals abandoned them they lost, and every time they lose they think "The more-rightward guy won.  If I want to get back in office, I best move right.  Especially since the liberals asked for the impossible, and promptly abandoned me when they didn't get it. I'm going to go support the people who support keeping me in office."

            Over 40 years, thats exactly why the party has moved right.  Money, power, and the status quo are entirely beatable with the right attitude-over time.  

            The problem is, liberals refuse to change their attitude despite 40+ years of evidence that that's what's failing.

            "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

            by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 12:12:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Total myth, backed by no facts or evidence. (5+ / 0-)

              The party moved to the right, time again, because it was full of rightists supported by rightists.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

              by enhydra lutris on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 03:16:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Logic dictates that when you lose an election due (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              happymisanthropy

              to poor voter turn-out, you hire plenty of smart, agenda-free people to talk with the public, really get out there and dig for info, and when they report back to you that the public didn't bother showing up at the polls because you aren't liberal enough for their tastes, you listen, learn, and vow to do better next time.  

              Neither you nor I honestly believe any democratic administration, or congresscritter, has been stupid enough to neglect such a fundamentally obvious course of action.  We might question their ethics and loyalties, but I doubt anyone here has ever questioned the average dem politico IQ.      

              The shockingly deplorable and increasingly likely explanation is that special interests (we all know who they are by now) have been systematically culling and bankrolling morally malleable candidates to run for office in a grand, inverted totalitarianistic scheme.  

              Inverted totalitarianism aims for the mass of the population to be in a persistent state of political apathy. The only type of political activity expected or desired from the citizenry is voting. Low electoral turnouts are favorably received as an indication that the bulk of the population has given up hope that the government will ever help them.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/...

              We get a democratic travesty complete with ostensibly clueless and disconnected politicians, they get to run the whole damn show while we squander precious time arguing about whether or not Obama has our best interests at heart.  

              What a fucking circus.  Bread and circuses, more like.

              "I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils (of capitalism), namely through the establishment of a socialist economy..." -Albert Einstein

              by socindemsclothing on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 07:55:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Whoa - the 1870s maybe (4+ / 0-)
          Second, learn a little patience- the system only began to malfunction in the 70's
          -

          History is your friend - study some.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 03:08:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I find that hysterical (0+ / 0-)

            coming from a person who cant see that history clearly demonstrates that liberals have driven the party right for 40+ years.

            By concentrating on the distant past, you're clearly missing what is right under your nose.

            Recent history is your friend- study some.

            "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

            by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 05:15:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  This is specious. You insinuate that I advocate (9+ / 0-)

      some kind of dangerous path, leaving the reader wondering what kind of horrendous policies I may be suggesting.

      Here's my answer.  Take a few minutes to watch:

      •  I've read your other diaries, Ray (0+ / 0-)

        I know EXACTLY what you are suggesting, and why it won't work.

        Your Hedges clip is not an answer, it's a deflection.

        "The future of man is not one billion of us fighting over limited resources on a soon-to-be dead planet. . .I won't go back into the cave for anyone."

        by Whimsical on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 12:15:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I recced this because it is a rational (6+ / 0-)

      response to Ray's proposals.  However, I strongly disagree that it is possible to change any of the problems within the present political situation.  I've seen this from more than two sides of the divisions, and it is clear to me that the NSA/FBI/Police State partisans have positions of power and influence that are not moveable within the two party system.  We need peaceful direct action that begins with disengagement from all corporate products, buying local and non corporate.  This includes not using our money to feed any national, international or extranational corporations.
           Violence will not work, see Syria, Egypt, France in 1789, etc.  Disengagement, socially and financially is, in my humble(?) opinion the most revolutionary thing we as a people can do.  Yes, there will be inconvenience, but how inconvenienced are we now?  Yes, there will be loss of comfort, but what has our comfort got us now?  Yes, we will have to get out of our ruts and become different in our eating, leisure and spending habits, but what are our present habits doing for us now?
           By disengagement, I do not mean moving to the country into communes, but gathering together in place and finding new ways to thrive without the plastic, fearful and dissatisfied way we now exist.  Give up disney fantasy and plant a garden.  Give up TV and read a book.  Buy food at the local farmers places and spend more effort in eating well.  Own only one car, and an electric golf cart, Don't buy clothes with ads on them.  Walk, don't drive within a mile of where you are.  Get rid on telephone, cable and other contracts.  Buy glass, not plastic.  Register independent, even as you vote Democratic.
           The corporate/security/war state needs our dollars, efforts and complaisance to grow and survive.  Take that from them, and they may be weakened to the point that we can then have people on the ballots that are not owned, coopted or careerists.

      Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

      by StrayCat on Sat Aug 17, 2013 at 09:24:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reads Reggid's diary and tell me no one (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mrkvica, happymisanthropy, JVolvo

      disagrees with that paragraph.  If no one disagrees, why aren't we all united to stop this stuff? Why is Greenwald frequently trashed on this website?  Why is Wyden being labeled a grandstander?  We don't all agree with that paragraph, that is the problem.  

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