Skip to main content

View Diary: RKBA: Open Thread (320 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  We've had the Civil Rights tag on our diaries for (8+ / 0-)

    literally years. We were included in the giant list o' groups as a Civil Rights group.

    You're, of course, entitled to your opinion. The Civil Rights tag will stay right where it is since RKBA is a civil right.

    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

    by KVoimakas on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:45:24 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Of course I am entitled to my opinion and (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero, LilithGardener

      you are to yours. Calling RKBA Civil Rights is not justified in any sense of the struggle for equality and you cannot tell me where they are defined as such in any government document, but you can keep posting it - offensive though it is to people that have had their actual Civil Rights violated.

    •  Tortured semantics KV. (3+ / 0-)

      But, its your tag, so enjoy. How about another tag.. Freedom of Killing Something? Freedom of Accident? Freedom of Choice to Intimidate neighbors? Freedom to Make Ammo Producers Rich? I can think of many tags more germaine than Civil Rights, but as I say, if thats your cover, welcome to it.

      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

      by OregonOak on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:15:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's in the Bill of Rights (6+ / 0-)

        so it's a Civil Right. Discrimination is not the only Civil Rights issue. Denying rights for any reason, discriminatory or not, is the essence of the problem.

        For example, Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan have a right of Free Speech, and WBC has Freedom of Religion. It is only offensive speech that has to be protected by the First Amendment. Nobody is offended by the other kind.

        Get over it. You are not Humpty Dumpty, and words do not mean only what you want them to mean.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 03:25:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your interpretation of "Rights" is not the one (3+ / 0-)

          which the Second Amendment says it is. I dont think the word Rights means what you think it means. Absolute gun ownership is not a right. It may be regulated within the context of a well-regulated milita. That is what the Constitution says, and no tortured semantic twisting by decades of NRA propaganda can change it. We will return to sanity when the Supreme Court learns to read English again, and when the citizens are not duped by slick NRA lawyers and their advertising spin machines.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:26:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's something I don't get (3+ / 0-)

            Relief under Heller was that Mr. Heller got to register his gun, and obtain a DC gun license, which has a training requirement.

            Why are there some so persistent in asserting that licensing and registration are iunconstitutional restrictions on gun ownership?

            By KV's definition Scalia is anti-RKBA!

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:57:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Excactly, I have yet to see a rational explanation (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener, coquiero, OregonOak

              of how licensing or registration violate any right, constitutional or other.

              “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

              by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 04:24:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I hear crickets.... (2+ / 0-)

                It looks like no rational explanation is forthcoming.... tick, tick, tick. I have been waiting 13 months for KV's To Do List of gun regulations which he is in favor of, other than to legalize "crew served weapons" such as the 8 inch howitzer and the bazooka for home predator defense weapons. Maybe he is rethinking his position on that..

                Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:22:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're full of it. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  theatre goon

                  And I even posted one of my comments from back when in response to that.

                  Diary should be up this afternoon.

                  And I'm curious. Would you be happy to see licensing and registration for the other civil rights contained in the Constitution? The right to a jury trial? Make sure you register locally or you don't get one. Speech? Make sure you take this competency test before you open your mouth. Religion? Hey, you can't practice your religion until you show you're competent.

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:24:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are starting to blither. Where to start.. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DefendOurConstitution

                    Guess I wont waste my time.

                    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                    by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:32:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thanks. nt (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      theatre goon

                      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:34:20 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, really, thank YOU! (2+ / 0-)

                        For releasing me to my obligation to debate with a person who doesnt remember his own line of reasoning, his comments, then wont admit he changed position, possibly, until cornered, and uses the latest in Republican talking points and technique to tie up the site. I thank you, KV.

                        So, how is the latest Bait Diary working out for you, dude?Everything you expected it would be?

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:46:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  roflmao. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theatre goon

                          You had an obligation? I think you take the internet a tad too seriously.

                          I love the fact that you still haven't posted a link to this comment. I don't remember specifics about a lot of things. I think the NFA is unconstitutional but I'm pretty sure it won't ever get overturned. I also think that crew served weapons COULD be banned without infringing upon the second amendment since 2A doesn't cover non-small arms. I also think that if you're going to go through the NFA process, why shouldn't you have a crew served weapon? Federal registration, tax stamp, etc etc.

                          I know you haven't been popping into our diaries for a while, so you probably haven't caught how things have changed with regards to individual people. That's fine. Ignorance is fixable.

                          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:51:44 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Walk away, we are a fact based community and (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          LilithGardener

                          the facts just don't support the fear that any firearms regulation (sometimes even just a discussion of them) will result in confiscation or anything like that.

                          “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

                          by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:21:53 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Please cite case law or Court opinions (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DefendOurConstitution

                    for your claims about unconstitutional restrictions on civil rights.

                    When did any court determine that someone could vote without being registered?

                    When did any court determine that people can vote in a district of their choice? On any day of their choice?

                    When did any court determine that a defendant could move the trial to any jurisdiction, according to his own free choice?

                    When did any court determine that a choir could exercise their religious edict to save souls by performing at 2AM on a quiet residential street.

                    When did any court determine that a parade permit fee is unconstitutional?

                    All civil rights have restrictions that balance the individual expression with the risk of harm/violation of the rights of others.

                    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                    by LilithGardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:18:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well said. nt (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LilithGardener

                      “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

                      by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:22:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm curious, do you always go by (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      theatre goon

                      SCOTUS opinions or case law when it comes to the Constitutionality of a law or legislation?

                      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:26:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm sure LG is consistent (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        theatre goon

                        and loves Citizens United and the decision putting Bush in office.

                        Or only supports it when it suits her.

                        I'm guessing option 2.

                      •  Only when I'm trying to guage whether (0+ / 0-)

                        dubious legal theories have any merit.

                        In Heller SCOTUS articulated relief explicitly. We don't have to wonder if registration and licensing and training requirements are constitutional.  

                        Mr. Heller's relief was to register his gun and obtain a DC gun license, which includes a training requirement. Apparently the majority opinion in Heller thought those requirements were constitutional restrictions on the individual RKBA.

                        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                        by LilithGardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:49:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So, not all the time. Gotcha. I understand that. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theatre goon

                          That isn't meant flippantly either.

                          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:55:54 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  New ideas are not necessarily without merit (0+ / 0-)

                            but I'm not entertained by dualing fantasies, even if the rhetorical games are entertaining in the short run.

                            I'm a strong supporter of the individual RKBA for the purpose of self defense and other lawful purposes, but neither I nor anyone else can even mention any regulations without being accused of not caring about the whole bill of rights.

                            I grew up with guns and now live in NYC unarmed. I know both sides of the rural/urban divide. The relative utility and the relative risk of harm varies a lot across our country and courts have been granting states and local jurisdictions wide latitude to solve local problems.

                            I want to see more discussion of actual law and less gospel preaching.

                            For example:
                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                            by LilithGardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:15:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm open to new ideas; (0+ / 0-)

                        but I don't have to agree with everything SCOTUS decides to know that SCOTUS does get to decide where the boundary of constitutional/unconstitutional lies.

                        We can look to the courts for guidance about whether gun license fees are a poll tax. According to Kwong v Bloomberg they're not.

                        So until you cite case law articulating something different, I'll be basing my opinion on a court opinion rather than your unfounded gospel that license fees are obviously unconstitutional. Because civil rights.

                        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                        by LilithGardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:37:52 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  DBAD dude. nt (5+ / 0-)

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:06:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Acronyms.. love it. More dogwhistles. (0+ / 0-)

          You are so full of Republican rhetorical technique that I am surpised you can even read the posts here on Kos without becoming physically ill. DBAD.. now what could that refer to? Can I be in your club too? I am all atwitter for it.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:18:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This one comes straight from Markos. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas

            DBAD -- Don't Be A Dick

            Community Guidelines

            The core of the Daily Kos behavior guide is simple: don't be a dick.
            Your behavior here goes against a couple of those rules -- insults and threadjacking, and a good argument could be made for spamming, since you're just posting the same empty nonsense over and over.

            There, you've learned something new today.  Something you would have already known, however, if you bothered with site rules.  Clearly, there are those that don't.

            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

            by theatre goon on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:56:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Goon! Excellent! First Pave and now Goon. (0+ / 0-)

              Dont be a dick. Well, that is a matter of interpretation, now isnt it. When people here at RKBA do the "pig pile", host "bait" diaries full of nonsense proposals which on their face are non-starters, use Republican talking points and rhetorical techniques, do not remember their own line of argument for more than a month, bob and weave in positions of dubious logic, and then accuse others of being phallusus, the readers DO begin to wonder who is, or who are, being the aforementioned and referenced "dicks." If I get HR'd, that is fine, because, as my grandma used to say, a letter of Reprimand from Richard Nixon is actually a compliment for moral people.

              I have no doubt that you believe what you believe sincerely, but your entire approach to this site, the process of debate and your treatment of those who disagree passionately is below the democratic traditions. I only SEEM dickish to such people, and that is a compliment.

              Thank you for posting today. I welcome your comments.

              Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

              by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:39:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You haven't been HR-ed. nt (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon, ER Doc

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:47:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I've not seen simple things like facts... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KVoimakas, ER Doc

                  ...get in the way of this particular user's commentary in this thread.

                  Can't say I'm surprised by that.

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:04:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You missed something Goon... (0+ / 0-)

                    Ethos, Logos, Pathos.. the three forms of argument based on Aristotle's original Rhetoric. Still seems to apply. While I scatter facts through my posts, I am heavy on logos and ethos, while those are the higher level thinking and believing lacking in the RKBA arguments. You think you can pepper the posts with "facts" and that is all that matters. I think, and can show you how, that ethos (ethical arguments and logic) and logos (the relationship between facts, ethics and logic) are more important than simple facts out of context or pulled from thin air. Where you go to school makes a difference in your ability to think critically, and I was lucky to be raised in Oregon when we had schools and teachers second to none, and did well in them.  I understand fully the burden of argument and rhetoric, and feel a deep responsibility to it when I discuss here. I am not just making things up, off the top of my head, to be forgotten by myself or others.  I am not attacking personally until attacked personally, and I factor in a strong dose of Right and Wrong for all people, not just the Rights of gun owners, in my ethical arguments.

                    And beneath all that is a strong non-religious, non-superstitious Christian philosophy; do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Be passersby. Be humble in the world. Be generous to others even when it costs you money or pain. But do not give up the fight for justice on earth, and the elimination of the sword for the plowshare. I do not need as many facts as the people who support guns, because I have ethics and logic behind me. I use facts when needed, and when true, but you are taking a primary school approach to this discussion, and if you want to be taken seriously, start learning how to actually debate and discuss. A pirate costume doesn't exactly cut it. Those are visuals. Get into the deeper meanings of what you say. That is a challenge.

                    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                    by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 02:55:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Disarming the common folk isn't ethical. (6+ / 0-)

                      Those who beat their swords to plowshares will plow for those who didn't.

                      This is hilarious, by the way.

                      I do not need as many facts as the people who support guns, because I have ethics and logic behind me.
                      Mitt Romney, is that you?

                      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 05:35:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Your "facts" are all cherry picked from the NRA. (0+ / 0-)

                        You call them Facts, but they are the standard NRA boilerplate propaganda, and because you are not very analytical, you buy it. You buy it for selfish reasons, too. You want your toys. Your things. You are the example of the man who cannot change his mind because it is not possible to disinvest a lifetime worth of baloney digested from a propaganda machine. It would mean you are a gullible person unable to think for himself. Unacceptable. So you argue your position which in its end result kills thousands of innocents because we cannot regulate guns the way they must be. And will be. We will get over this, because the way we live now is not sustainable. People are already saying -- enough.

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:46:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Apparently not enough people to actually (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theatre goon, ER Doc, gerrilea

                          pass some of the more onerous gun control laws.

                          If I never changed my mind (which is what I'm reading you as saying there) then my stance on UBCs didn't change, right?

                          Firearms are never toys by the way.

                          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 06:30:12 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Man-toys for you to be all dangerous and serious. (0+ / 0-)

                            Because you are afraid you are not.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 07:56:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  *snort* (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            Perhaps you'd like to talk to any of the people who I'm friends with on DK to see if I consider myself dangerous and serious. Or hell, the people I met at NN11 when I was actually armed.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:42:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You boast about being armed? (0+ / 0-)

                            That is interesting. And although I hate to say it, it kind of proves my point. You need the attention of seeming to be a dangerous man, so you not only arm yourself, you TELL everyone you are armed.

                            I dont even boast about being unarmed. I just let it be. Wish my gun-bearing friends could learn about humility and walking quietly in the world.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 11:59:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually no, I didn't tell anyone I was armed (0+ / 0-)

                            until some time later here on DK when someone brought up something where saying I was armed at NN11 was relevant.

                            In everyday life, there are very few people who know I'm armed. I'm semi-anonymous on here so I mention it with no problems. At work, only a bare handful know I carry. Including the CEO (figured that'd be a smart idea). My wife and family know along with some very close friends.

                            That's it. I'd much prefer people didn't know I was carrying, which is what I say when people as if I am.

                            Yes, I lie. Unless it's a LEO.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:12:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That is to your credit then. (0+ / 0-)

                            Many gun owners I have known both here and in Alaska cannot WAIT to list every known fact and factiod about the gun(s) they are currently wearing, how they wear them, why they wear them, what they will do with them given a chance and where they will go to do it. WAAAAYYYYYYYY TOOO much Information. (WTMI) The discreet bulge in the chest area or the  groin area is really all it takes unless the aforesaid gun owner wants to be labeled a Putz.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 02:15:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is called Self-Awareness, by the way. (0+ / 0-)

                            Its a Progressive idea. We feel certain ways when we are growing up, and its possible to get stuck in a time period of feeling out of nostalgia, desire for certainty, or a feeling of power we thought we needed. Gun owners, and I am one of those who felt this way at 14, wrap themslves in these deep feelings and then construct elaborate rational arguments for why it is right and natural to do so. The NRA is paid to do this psychological work for you.

                            But when you become self-aware, you understand that a feeling is not a good enough reason to cling so tightly to an idea which is proving really harmful when spread out among the fearful population. Still, your "reasons" remain. The feeling comes first, the reasons, the rationalizations, second.

                            That is what ER Doctor does not even understand. He thinks his Reasons are all he needs. He does not get the fact that we all reason from emotion first, and that a self aware person admits this, and puts it into the rhetorical equation. Ethos, Logos, Pathos.. two of the three are feelings, not fact.

                            Time to start changing your feelings as you did on the issue of seat belts. You didnt like someone telling you what to do for your own good, but eventually you realized it was right. This is the same thing. You have the intelligence to become self aware and join the moral side, the side which will win this debate and the policy which will follow as soon as Scalia and Alito and Roberts are gone from the bench by way of humiliating retirement.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 08:05:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, I wore my seatbelt anyway. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            Disarming people, removing their ability for self defense and increasing restrictions on a civil right isn't the moral side. I have no idea where you get that.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:43:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  From Western Civilization and the Hard Lessons (0+ / 0-)

                            of forming civil democratic societies. From the hard and long slog out of tribalism, monarchy and individual warlordism. Do not make a holy object of any graven image. (Any technology created by man) Turn the other cheek if a man strikes you (Pacifism in the face of violence will change the violent most of the time) Do not imply violence by way of fearsome weapons (Life is the most sacred value) I could go on. There are literally hundreds of ethical arguments in Western Civilization which place concern for your fellow man above individual want or even need. To deny this is to deny our society's peaceful ascent. Guns were a fly in the ointment for slaveowners paranoid of losing control in 1790. We need to treat the Second Amendment as a sop.. a giveaway.. to the Slaveonwing States who could not be persuaded to join the Union without assurance that they could still hunt down slaves (blacks and browns) and indentured servants (whites)  I teach Western Civilization and Composition, and understand these ideas. Unfortunately the Conservatives in Legislatures hate these courses, so they are no longer required for ER Doctors or anyone else. We do not understand the principles which formed this great wealth and great freedom, and we will lose it unless we teach it again, and are believed.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 10:13:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha... (5+ / 0-)
                      I use facts when needed, and when true...
                         When they aren't true, they aren't "facts." Apparently that superior education missed that. It sounds like that superior education primarily taught you how to bullshit, with empathy.
                          And, FWIW, I'd put my education in rural Iowa up against Oregon any day.

                      -7.25, -6.26

                      We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                      by ER Doc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:04:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Dont you mean "Training?" (0+ / 0-)

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:40:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You know, that is precisely the sort of arrogance (4+ / 0-)

                          that puts the lie to your previous claim of reason, logic, and empathy.

                          -7.25, -6.26

                          We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                          by ER Doc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:34:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  We are not required to be empathetic to terror (0+ / 0-)

                            or those who argue for weapons of terror. It is the same principle Eisenhower used in fighting the dagger wielding, technology-obsessed and brutal anti-humanists of Europe mid-last century.

                            This is well grounded in Western Philosophy from the time of Aquinas, Erasmus and Locke, down through Jefferson and Franklin and Lincoln. Those who do not speak and act with empathy for the innocent and the less privileged do not deserve it for themselves.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 08:30:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I use the word "training," by the way, to refer to (4+ / 0-)

                          my residency, which I did in Philadelphia. I use the word "education" to refer to the preceding 20 years, all in Iowa.

                          -7.25, -6.26

                          We are men of action; lies do not become us.

                          by ER Doc on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:38:44 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •   This is called Self-Awareness (0+ / 0-)

                            Its a Progressive idea. We feel certain ways when we are growing up, and its possible to get stuck in a time period of feeling out of nostalgia, desire for certainty, or a feeling of power we thought we needed. Gun owners, and I am one of those who felt this way at 14, wrap themslves in these deep feelings and then construct elaborate rational arguments for why it is right and natural to do so. The NRA is paid to do this psychological work for you.

                            But when you become self-aware, you understand that a feeling is not a good enough reason to cling so tightly to an idea which is proving really harmful when spread out among the fearful population. Still, your "reasons" remain. The feeling comes first, the reasons, the rationalizations, second.

                            That is what, you, ER Doctor do not understand. You think your Reasons are all you need. You do not get the basic human principle, a fact, that we all reason from emotion first, and that a self-aware person admits this, and puts it into the rhetorical equation. Ethos, Logos, Pathos.. two of the three are feelings, not fact. Aristotle put Ethics first, Logos second and Pathos third for a reason in his formulation of what is correct argumentation and correct thinking about human issues. He was, and is, largely correct on this I think, and so do many Progressive Humanists.

                            Time to start changing your feelings as you did on the issue of seat belts, food additives, soil conservation, regulation of ER doctors qualifications, etc etc etc. . You, and I,  didnt like someone telling you what to do for your own good, but eventually you, and I, realized it was right. This is mature self awareness. This is the same thing. You have the intelligence to become self aware and join the moral side, the side which will win this debate and the policy which will follow as soon as Scalia and Alito and Roberts are gone from the bench by way of humiliating retirement.

                            I have this quote line for a good reason, from one of the true geniuses of America: "Figures don't lie, but liars do figure"-Mark Twain

                            Facts are not enough, especially cherry picked facts from a self interested source, the NRA. Progressives know this in their bones, and people who are trained technocrats or drilled in the virtue of "proceedure" have real trouble with the concept. I appeal to the RKBA to take this into real consideration when examining where your beliefs come from, and their consequences for the innocent children exposed to an extreme threat of the gun in America.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 08:26:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  THINK OF THE CHILDREN. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon, ER Doc

                            Yep, no appeal to emotion there...

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:44:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My Right Wing teacher friend uses this as his (0+ / 0-)

                            battle cry. Implying, of course, that empathy is weak, inferior, not to be tolerated by Real Romans. Manly Men. Good to mock concern for the underdog. He is one of those frat boys who never got over being a white guy when being a white guy was not cool any more. The 1990s. He is armed too..

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:01:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The appeal to emotion: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ER Doc

                            for those who can't argue with facts.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:13:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Its an example.. and its a fact. Logos. (0+ / 0-)

                            I know all this because I have talked to him at length. He is a seriously conflicted and frustrated guy because he feels he missed out on all the easy pickings as a white guy by being born too late. Its sad.. I dont know how he got that idea, but its FIRMLY planted in his head, along with the mocking battle cry.. THINK of the CHILDREN.. He thinks its clever.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 02:24:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  This bears repeating (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                OregonOak
                I have no doubt that you believe what you believe sincerely, but your entire approach to this site, the process of debate and your treatment of those who disagree passionately is below the democratic traditions. I only SEEM dickish to such people, and that is a compliment.

                Thank you for posting today. I welcome your comments.

                Some seem to have a real thin skin and obvious double standards, either that or there is a whole lot of faux outrage purely for some dramatic effect.

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:31:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Drama.. its in the Republican Blood.. LowTheater (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  for the peons. Bread and Circuses. And now the peons do it to each other, thinking that its SOOO clever because their "betters" at every AM hate radio station in the country have shown them how.  

                  Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                  by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:47:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site