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  •  Oh Dear Lord.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener

    Last summer KV was arguing that decisions on the Second Amendment WERE the Second amendment. This year, not so much. I need a scorecard.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:42:55 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Hey, you didn't show up in that suggestions (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      diary that I wasn't going to write, yet showed up anyway.

      And I know you're not going to give any evidence. FSM forbid you waste time with links.

      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

      by KVoimakas on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 05:31:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ethos trumps Logos any day of the week. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener

        Which is why you are obsessed with the minutiae of factual detail.. so you dont have to deal with ethical argumentation.

        A classic "cannot see the forest for the trees" person, enabled by the dominant media view and the Republican hate radio personalities infesting the airwaves.

        Start looking at Ethical Reasoning, and read the Sermon on the Mount and Christ's spoken words to the Pharisees in the Temple. Western Civilization is chock full of ethical argument which the technocrats and compartmentalizers will not deal with. You dont even have to be religious. Look at the logic.
         

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:13:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've read the Bible. It's useless claptrap. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, Kasoru

          Hate to break it to you, but I don't listen to the radio and I get my news from DK.

          Ethos? Because disarming or disabling/reducing someone's ability to defend his or her self is definitely the moral thing to do.

          Right.

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:39:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you reject ALL Western Civilization ethical (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener

            principles? Or just the ones in the Old and New Testament? BTW, I am not religious. I just know that this book encapsulates most of Greek, Roman and Middle Eastern (Western) ideas for ethical conduct in society.

            I don't pray to it, I learn what we came from and how we learned to be successful at forming societies, as opposed to tribalism and constant individual warfare. Its about how we became a societ by agreeing on some basic ethical conduct and belief.  

            I find all the magical parts claptrap too. But Christ did have something to say, and people do not understand what it was, so they go off and create a deity where none existed, just a very deep Western Ethical Philosopher. He doesnt need to be God to be listened to. He is a man who understood that ethics comes first, and all else is rationalization.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:54:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He was crazy. That means he doesn't get listened (0+ / 0-)

              to.

              With no god, there's no way he can be the son of god...or part of god.

              At that point, you can safely take the rest of the stuff he's said and throw it by the wayside.

              Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 10:10:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  KV reread my post. I dont believe in God.. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener

                but Christ's ethical arguments are crucially and critically formative in a democratic society, like it or not. Eye of the Needle. Gentleness of Spirit. Free the Moral life from Fear. Faith in the Universe. Fear not. Passivism in the face of violence. Generosity to those in need. Beat plowshares from swords. Do unto others.. these are the basis of our Democratic and Civil Society. Without these ethical principles, all of them, you would not be living in such comfort and safety because a majority of Americans believed in this when we started, and treated each other accordingly, as equals. Without Christian Ethics, we devolve into Roman Empire ethics, which, as you can see, mean perpetual warfare and perpetual fear and loathing, plus suspicion. Armed to the teeth.

                Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 10:22:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I disagree with Christ on a bunch of things. (0+ / 0-)

                  Christ might've been some crazy dude who thought he was the son of god, but he's not just that, he's also very, very wrong.

                  Peace is just a pause between wars. Those who beat their swords to plowshares will plow for those who didn't.

                  The only faith I have in "the universe" deals with the laws of science. I definitely don't have any in humankind as a species.

                  Oh, and I don't agree with treat others how you'd like to be treated. Treat others how they treat you.

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 11:12:51 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow. Ok. Good to know. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LilithGardener

                    I prefer that humankind live to evolve further. I think we are worthwhile if we get the right kind of early life with love and teaching. The potential is immense and remarkable. The Universe is, if not kind, at least in favor of leaving us alone for a good time period, and that is a good thing in my view.

                    So our argument here really does come down to how we ethically see the universe, the world and society. I am happy to know it. Now I can think some more. Thank you for your honesty.

                    A question for you; do you think your ethical approach is somewhat similar to other staunch defenders of guns, or would you be somewhat of an outlier in their ethical approach to others and society? Just your impression.. nothing certain of course.

                    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                    by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 11:40:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I have no idea. (0+ / 0-)

                      I live in a small conservative town where I'm an outlier because I'm one o' those damn liberals.

                      Yet I support RKBA.

                      It wouldn't surprise me if I was an outlier there when compared with your typical conservative pro-RKBAer.

                      I think in the grand scheme of things, humankind will go the way of the dodo. Everything tends towards entropy.

                      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 11:59:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Life, reproduction, is the Anti-Entropy fact.. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LilithGardener

                        And the human brain, considering the Universe, and somehow created by the Universe, defies the Universe in complexity. If you dont find mystery and hope in that, I don't know what anyone can do for you. Life is so rare, so unusual that even an amoeba staggers the imagination in the size of space, and 7 billion human brains and minds are as nothing, but they create the possibility of something which we may or may not fulfil. We can dwell in the animal past, or we can get together and use our minds to inhabit and teach the Universe. It really is up to us. What's it gonna be?

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:06:00 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Have you looked at the world lately? (0+ / 0-)

                          I see no hope there.

                          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:09:11 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  KV you live in Paradise compared to 100 years ago (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener

                            unless you live in Scranton, in which case, yes you have a point. But seriously.. would you have enjoyed carting typhoid water 6 times a day to your wife so she could stand over a wood stove all day boiling it? Would you have enjoyed riders armed to the teeth killing escaped slaves in your backyard because the law said they could? Would you have enjoyed getting an infected cut and dying a week later bloated up like a zeppelin? Or your dog or kids or wife? Would you have enjoyed being impressed into one of the Czars armies and wasted in the thousands as cannon fodder.. or a British soldier mowed down at the Somme with 20,000 others in 12 hour period for "King and Country!"

                            You have an education. You have the things you need. You have an income. You have resources you can create with your hands and mind. You have MORE than King George III had when he died a lunatic. Where in God's name you can put on he mantle of cynicism and pose like its a thorny crown, I dont get. Cynicism is a pose and a disease. It spreads from person to person and becomes a "style" and especially today with the idiotic teevee and everyone around us imitating the most cynical of the most cynical for profit.

                            There is so much to hope for. As Robert Kennedy said, quoting Cicero.. "Some men see things as they are and wonder why. I see things that never have been and ask.. why not?" Join the true Progressives and envision the things which have NEVER been and ask.. Why NOT? It is up to us to see that the world does NOT descend into a Reality TV version of "Children of Men," that dystopian hell. It can, and it will, be done, and I wont stop until that vision is rejected and a whole world is realized in hope and peace. Guns are one part of the brick wall which need now to finally be brought under control to achieve a world without fear. Love and fear are the opposites. You cannot love in fear. You cannot have fear and love anything. Job one is to get rid of fear. When that is done, cynicism disappears forever.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 02:36:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Would you like to discuss this someplace (0+ / 0-)

                            that isn't this diary? Seriously. Email, Gtalk, Astra, AIM...?

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 06:15:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes you can email me here at Kos.. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            I read and respond to messages. And its private. Here is a link that gave me optimism for humanity, if you like music.

                            http://www.youtube.com/...

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 06:40:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  I dont live in the dark space you do KV. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LilithGardener

                        I have great hope, great optimism and great set of futures we can do, but we are going to have to stop killing each other. As Kurt Vonnegut said, "Love each other dammit. Its the only thing to do." And he stacked German corpses in Dresden as a POW. I will take his word.

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:07:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Cynical, pessimistic, and skeptical of (0+ / 0-)

                          damn near everything/one. No wonder we don't see eye to eye.

                          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:13:56 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I dont think you have to live there. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener

                            I have been there too, and its painful to say the least. I learned to recover my optimism for the future based on who I hung out with, and what I chose to do to help people. It took a while, but after a time, I simply did not need my guns any more. I figure, whatever. If a gunman is going to surprise me, he will get me armed or not, and my best hope is to talk my way out it anyway. If the government or NSA or Corporate IT wants me, well, they outgun me. If a deranged right wing person wants to kill me, I will offer him a meal first and then, he can, after we eat together. If a moment of passion arouses someone, I have feet to run and arms to push. I cannot ever envision myself being in a winning gunfight. At best I see a draw, both dead or both injured. Neither appeals to me any more. And its a much happier place. More secure by far. And the number of threats to me remains as it was before when I was armed... zero. No change. Except I feel more secure and happy.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 02:21:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  But anyway, you cannot dispute the fact that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LilithGardener

                    America's founding documents are laced with the philosophy of the New Testament which encapsulated Western ethical philosophy, and even the Founders were atheists of the enlightenment (Jefferson, Franklin, Madison) who used those ethical ideals as the basis for both the Declaration and the Constitution, among other founding writings.

                    To abandon the ethical underpinnings of democracy in America in favor of your position on guns is a radical change in how we view one another, our understanding of civil society, the greater good, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty is not license to do what you want. It is a balance of MY rights to be free to move about without concern, my pursuit of happiness not to worry about my school being shot up every week, and my liberty to make sure criminals and sociopaths are not armed for the safety of my family.

                    You are proposing a mighty change, in line with the NRA's advocacy of values Post WW2,  in our understood ethical values, KV, I hope you know that, by taking the positions you take. If we accept your new ethical values, I fear we must discard civil democaracy in favor of Roman style society; get what you can, keep it, live fast and be prepared to die young with no hope of an afterlife. Thats not a world I will work to advance. Too much Native American in me, I am afraid. Nez Perce and Fox.

                    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                    by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 11:53:09 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  We don't have civil democracy (0+ / 0-)

                      right fucking now.

                      I think that's part of the problem.
                      ---

                      Liberty is not license to do what you want. It is a balance of MY rights to be free to move about without concern, my pursuit of happiness not to worry about my school being shot up every week, and my liberty to make sure criminals and sociopaths are not armed for the safety of my family.
                      I'm not saying liberty is the license to do what you want. Liberty is do what you want until your fist meats the end of the other persons nose. Then it's an infringement upon his liberty. Did you ever show in my suggestions diary? Look, there are ways to cut back on violent crime. Ways to cut back on suicides. And they don't infringe upon my right to keep and bear arms.

                      Oh, and the Dec. of Independence isn't one of our governing documents.

                      ---

                      Here's an EVD quote for you:

                      The Constitution of the United States guarantees to you the right to bear arms…You have the unquestioned right, under the law, to defend your life and protect the sanctity of your fireside. Failing in either, you are a coward and a craven and undeserving of the name of man. -Eugene V. Debs-
                      Passivism in the face of violence is not the American way. (Going back a comment.)

                      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 12:07:34 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  To Lincoln, it was a Governing Principle.. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LilithGardener

                        But lets not get caught up in minutiae.

                        Well unless people can accept that what made us the most trusted country in the world, the go-to nation, the model of stability and decency was our ethical concern based on New Testament Ethics, which encapsulated Western Values from both Old and New Testament.

                        That does NOT mean we have to be religious, but it does mean we have to acknowledge our roots as an ethical society. Unrestricted military gun ownership is a fly in that ointment, and has been since the founding, as it was a concession to slaveholders in exchange for their joining the Union. When slavery was outlawed, there was good reason to change the interpretation of the Second Amendment, but the Southern States still regarded gun "rights" as important to order in a racist society.

                        We can now safely interpret the Second Amendment as written. The question of slavery is settled. We can be safer with battlefield weapons reserved for the military, and not salted throughout the population. The ownership of guns is not an individual right, as Scalia concedes in Heller. It does exist within the well-regulated militia part of the amendment, as Ginsburg and Stevens wrote. This is not settled law. We still have time to correct the last remaining vestige of America's Original Sin; the enslavement of people for profit, and the intimidation of fellow citizens by means of using guns.  

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 02:07:11 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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