Skip to main content

View Diary: Allow This Brit to Remind Some of You What Matters to Americans (205 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  We have an advantage (18+ / 0-)

    on many issues, and I don't advocate ignoring those things because the GOP is so "out there", that we should encourage them to keep talking.

    Concentrate on the big three because that is what people worry about, then dip into other matters to send the GOP into the weeds :)

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:48:25 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

      •  I agree wholly (17+ / 0-)

        And I think many are "concerned" ... but they are not worried, they don't yet feel it personally.

        My angle here is that we need to win, to effect change. To win we have to persuade people that we understand their fears.

        Politicians in tune with that will be on the right side of Climate Change too.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:51:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  extreme weather (14+ / 0-)

          is opening many eyes. there's a political opportunity, if democrats would take advantage of it.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:55:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In a democracy, Twigg (5+ / 0-)

          No one individual speaks for all of us. This is why there is debate. By sharing our concerns, we can come to agreement. True democracy is a process of dialogue, not just a poll. When one person gets up in front of us and dictates to the rest of us what the American people want, that is a dialogue ending tactic.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:39:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If we had anything resembling (10+ / 0-)

            "True Democracy"

            I wouldn't have written the Diary. Have you been around for the last few election cycles?

            What people want is to feel that someone is listening to them, and addressing their concerns.

            The American people are exactly the same as people everywhere, in that respect.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 04:49:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I thought this was satire at first (6+ / 0-)

              First of all, your major premise is inaccurate. Polls have shown repeatedly now that Americans care very much about the NSA spying scandal.

              But even if we pretend that you are correct, that people only care about jobs, health and education, are you really arguing that we should only care about those issues too?

              I'm sorry, but I've seen a lot of dumb arguments used to defend Obama and the status quo in general around here, but this one takes the cake.

              The reason why so many are so concerned and focused on this issue is because it's dreadfully important. Maybe you can't grasp the danger of allowing a handful of individuals, operating in secret, to be able to pull up on a computer everything a senator or congressman or a labor leader or a anti-war activist has ever said on the phone, in an email, or text message, but fortunately, most of us with brains, and even a dim grasp of history, can. And we realize that, regardless of what the masses may think, we have no choice but to stop this usurpation of power.

              •  Yeah ... (13+ / 0-)

                You wanna add some irony to your partronising.

                You think anyone outside the Beltway, or a liberal Blog, puts your final paragraph above Jobs, Health and Education?

                That's why we keep losing!

                You make the additional mistake of apparently believing that I don't care about the spying, simply because I don't have my hair on fire.

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                Who is twigg?

                by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 05:36:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My point was that civil rights, (5+ / 0-)

                  and their importance, are not predicated on the whims or wishes of the public.

                  And to answer your question, I never said people cared more about the NSA scandal than jobs.

                  It was your wording that invoked the either/or dichotomy:

                  In no particular order, here is what folk care about:

                  Health

                  Education

                  Jobs

                  Deliberately or not, the implication there is that those are the only issues they care about. You could have said "here is what folk care about most" and we wouldn't have a disagreement on that point.

                  But you were clearly trying to create the impression in your diary that the public really doesn't care about this issue, which according to polling date, is patently false.

                  You then proceed to equate legitimate opposition to unconstitutional spying on innocent Americans as obsessive navel gazing.

                  Which really leaves me wondering why I'm even bothering to have a conversation with you. Now that I think of it. Too much coffee again. And obviously too much free time.

                •  Only one comment about this, twigg: (6+ / 0-)
                  You think anyone outside the Beltway, or a liberal Blog, puts your final paragraph above Jobs, Health and Education?

                  That's why we keep losing!

                  If people only care about Jobs, Health and Education, and that's "why we keep losing," why are the GOP winning in many states that have an abysmal record in all three of these issues, and make them worse once in power?

                  It seems to me that people vote against their own self-interest all the time, especially if these are the issues that matter most to them.

                  And I'm afraid I have to add to my own list (which, of course, includes climate change):

                  SEVERE ECONOMIC INEQUALITY (which keeps getting worse)
                  VOTING RIGHTS (ditto)

                  "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

                  by SottoVoce on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:24:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You refined the list (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sylv, Kevskos, congenitalefty, artmartin, Gurnt

                    I'm good with that.

                    You won't win by talking about "Economic Inequality", because it's a concept .... But you can build it into a platform as part of the job creation meme.

                    The entire point is that as elections approach we need to drive the conversation to matters that people are worried about TODAY

                    I don't suggest the other things have gone away, but I do think that they are not election winners.

                    Some are missing the point. I am not suggesting that things like spying are not important, I am simply saying that they are not topping the list of voter concerns.

                    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                    Who is twigg?

                    by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:29:48 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Our problems are so much larger than just three (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    greenbell, artisan, Dianna, Kombema, cslewis

                    issues. And today, I think Bill Moyers placed his finger on the real problem:

                    BILL MOYERS: We are so close to losing our democracy to the mercenary class, it’s as if we are leaning way over the rim of the Grand Canyon and all that’s needed is a swift kick in the pants. Look out below.

                    The predators in Washington are only this far from monopoly control of our government. They have bought the political system, lock, stock and pork barrel, making change from within impossible. That’s the real joke.

                    And I have a problem with this:
                    Do I think the current President sux on some of these things?

                    Well no, I don't.

                    If you can't see Obama's culpability in enabling the predators in Washington to gain monopoly control of our government, then I think we're in real trouble. The Democrats have decided that it's okay for a Democratic president to cede some of our greatest achievements to the republicans...that is incredibly sad on so many levels.

                    Some of the best and most passionate progressive writers have left this site, just like they've abandoned other progressive blogs, and it's because they have given up hope that the neo-libs, who keep defending Obama, will do the right thing...look at what is happening to MSNBC...and they still don't have a clue.

                    Tackling only three issues - which we have hammered into the ground for almost five years -- and hoping that it will turn our party around is just very short-sighted.

                    If we lose our democracy, then it won't matter what problems we identify...it will be game over. We won't have any other choices, just the drivel that the corporations will allow.

                •  Well, heck, Hope and Change too (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dianna, ZhenRen, Kombema, cslewis

                  Words don't do it.  Even low information voters get that.  Any politician says education, health, jobs.  Sheesh, I have a centrist Senator who does nothing but mouth platitudes
                  like that but what gets funded?  Black budgets for the NSA, cruise missiles, monoliths in Utah, military bases disguised as embassies.  

              •  I've seen this false dichotomy being pushed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cslewis

                here by a few people and also find it very disquieting.  I don't understand why so much effort is being put into it.

            •  Twigg, where have you been? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ray Pensador, cslewis

              Remember Occupy? Do you think thousands of people rallied all over the country in a movement that sprung up overnight occurred because we didn't know we don't have true democracy?

              That the system is broken is precisely why they went to parks instead of relying solely on the voting booth. And they were surveilled, infiltrated, violently attacked by the State, and dispersed. Laws were changed so that the the protesters could be legally evicted from various locations of assembly. The surveillance State declared them terrorists. Reports surfaced of planned assassinations.

              Were you there? Did you see them? Did you hear them?

              We protested for jobs, for education, for health care, for an end to the Wall Street hegemony, and we were violently attacked, beaten, gassed, sprayed, arrested, in some cases severely injured, by local militarized police who, with help from the Federal government, coordinated a nationwide violent suppression of the movement.

              And now I see individuals here who ridiculed Occupy, misrepresented its activities, and generally were lukewarm or even unsupportive, now acting as if all the left worries about is the fourth amendment. Gee, considering the recent history, it is rather oblivious to not understand why the left wants rights protected.

              My god, what disingenuous nonsense. Newsflash: Occupy was all about jobs, education, and health care. And because of a crackdown which largely trashed civil rights, we were forcibly driven from the places of public assembly .  

              Here's a diary for you to read.

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Read that to the end, and then see if you still want to lecture me about jobs, economic disparity, education, health care, as if this issue hasn't been raised by the left. Be sure to read to the end. It's a narrative, so it won't be hard to get through.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 11:38:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Concern v. worry (7+ / 0-)

          What impacts us personally is what we worry about most. Many non-politcal junkies already have jobs, insurance, and kids in decent enough schools. So those folks with a partisan bent turn to whatever trips their outrage button. And they are easily seduced by the media.

          It's easy to be a libertarian if your finances are secure, you have good healthcare and your future is bright.

          by Cecile on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 04:59:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  They're Not. nt (5+ / 0-)

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:52:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and that (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis, twigg, Just Bob, worldlotus, Kombema

          is our job. as is convincing more democrats that it is their job.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:56:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just a minute folks (15+ / 0-)
            Rights aren't "privilege" -- rights are rights.
            And to declare them to be privilege is one of the gravest and darkest moments in the history of the democratic party. To cede power to the state to override individual rights as if it is a matter of racial politics is anti-democratic, and serves no one.  The argument is a fraud upon everyone, particularly the ones some here are feigning to serve.

            The reason civil rights are set forth in the bill of rights, is so that majority opinion can't decide they aren't important. Some things are so crucial and basic that they must be protected and are not a matter of lower priority, because without rights we have nothing.

            Which is why it is so important to stand up for the 4th amendment, the rights to privacy, as well as freedom of assembly, freedom of speech.

            And this is why we must remain vigilant to protect them.

            To dismiss rights as privilege will destroy what is left of our democracy.

            And the people I talk to on the street don't agree that the surveillance isn't a concern. Working class people now distrust government more than ever.

            Anyone who suggests our rights are not a priority is working directly against the interests of the people.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:32:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ZhenRen ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              claude, Remembering Jello

              You can't eat rights.

              I understand the point you are making. It matters, okay?

              But I am talking about getting elected, and while it still matters, it matters less.

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 05:38:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  short version: (9+ / 0-)
                It's the economy, stupid
                h/t to WJC

                don't always believe what you think

                by claude on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:18:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  The problem isn't getting them elected (5+ / 0-)

                The problem is who they sold their soul to in order to get elected and what those people expect in return.  

                And even the ones who lose talk about jobs.  Romney must have said jobs 10 zillion times.  Job creators.  They know how to destroy perfectly good words.

                 

                •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sylv, Onomastic

                  That is a structural issue .. a political issue ... not an election driver.

                  Personally the one thing I would have liked the President to spend rather more time on, is Campaign Finance Reform.

                  The trouble is that all sides are so heavily invested in the current system, that it will take a veto-proof majority to fix it ... and they have to want to.

                  It is the single problem that so hampers good work on many other issues.

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:48:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  The problem with that is that if things (5+ / 0-)

                like climate change, and civil rights, and human rights, and legal accountability for torture aren't addressed during the election then the winners can just say that they don't have a mandate on those issues and therefore they will not do anything about them.

                                   Standing for justice and accountability,
                                                 For Dan,
                                                 Heather

                Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:31:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  They say what they like anyway (0+ / 0-)

                  once they are elected.

                  John Boehner and his crowd were elected in the House on a promise of jobs.

                  How many jobs bills have they produced.

                  Picking the candidates who have the right qualities is a primary process.

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:24:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So let me get this straight : (5+ / 0-)

                    1) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture in 2009, when the President was newly in office, because he had so much else on his plate and we needed to give him time.

                    2) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture during the 2010 election season, because there were important things to talk about and it would possibly end up getting Republicans elected.

                    3) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture during 2011 and 2012, because we might get Mitt Romney elected.

                    4) You are now saying we cannot talk about legal accountability for torture during the 2014 election season because it might end up getting Republicans elected.

                    WHEN exactly ARE we allowed to address this VERY important issue ?

                            Standing for justice and accountability,
                                               For Dan,
                                               Heather

                    Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                    by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:08:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sylv

                      Not what I am saying at all.

                      We did talk about it, and we should continue to do so.

                      Pointing out what the priorities are to the electorate is just a reminder. It is not a prescription.

                      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                      Who is twigg?

                      by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:12:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually, no, following the 2008 election, (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ZhenRen

                        we haven't talked about it, or pushed for it to happen, nearly enough, and yes, those of us who care about the issue have been told not to talk about it repeatedly because of different election cycles. I had hoped that this would not continue, but this is how it starts, being told that the public doesn't care about it. Then, as the election gets closer we will again be told that it's too important to elect Democrats to push on this issue and risk the election.

                                   Standing for justice and accountability,
                                                    For Dan,
                                                    Heather

                        Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                        by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:14:11 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Strawman (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                artisan, Chacounne, Ray Pensador, cslewis

                Of course you can't eat rights. This isn't an either/or situation. That is the strawman assumption. The false choice foisted on the discussion.

                Elections, voting, free speech to protest elected officials, the right to assembly to protest such officials, the right to organize without being surveilled, all are part of that.

                Thus, the message of OWS: The issue of jobs, education, health care was central to the theme of protesting the hegemony of Wall Street, which controls all of these issues.

                But unfortunately, the electoral process is broken, and pretty much run by Wall Street these days, which is why OWS sprung up all across the nation, even the world, overnight.

                And now people are acting as if these issues were ignored in favor of rights? All of these issues are interrelated. One doesn't come without the other. You can't fight for jobs without the right to wage that fight.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:09:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Most excellently stated. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greenbell, ZhenRen, cslewis

              The whole "white privilege" meme is just a loophole to get around the ban on calling Obama's critics here racists.

              To attempt to apply that meme to those who are justifiably outraged by the NSA revelations is the lowest form of sophistry. And it's utterly devoid of any intellectual basis.

              As has been pointed out repeatedly lately, one of the earliest and most significant victims of the surveillance state was the civil rights movement, including Martin Luther king. It is simply absurd to defend these criminals by by invoking racism in light of this history. Absurd and disgusting.

              •  I'd trade a lifetime of surveillance for (7+ / 0-)

                a guarantee that my daughter will never have to decide between her medication and her rent.

                If you honestly think that "privacy" is the end-all and be-all, I've gotta assume that that's not the kind of thing that keeps you up at night, Me, me it does. I'm not in a position to leave her independently wealthy when I die.

                You can call me whatever names you like. I know that that would be the right choice.

                •  Someone who understands prioriies :) (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Satya1

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:25:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Absurd use of false choice (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ZhenRen, artisan, cslewis, northsylvania

                    But let's run with it for a moment...

                    We already have a historical record of illegal surveillance being used against innocent Americans. Who were those innocent Americans? Tea Baggers? The health insurance lobby? Banksters? The people trying to enact policies that will very much lead to young women having to choose between medicine or rent?

                    Of course not. Illegal surveillance is a weapon used by the enemies of living wages, affordable health care, and affordable housing - not to mention every other important progressive issue you and Remembering Jello claim to care so much about.

                    Right here, at Daily kos, we had a huge expose and discussion about Palantir (with HBGary), working on behalf of Bank of America and the Chamber of Commerce, plotting to use covert and illegal tactics to damage progressives and labor unions.

                    Palantir is also one of the NSA's surveillance clients, generating billions of $ in contrqacts with software that, if it's not PRISM, is pretty much identical to it. Oh, and their version also happens to be called "Prism".

                    What kind of tiny, circle jerk of a bubble must you folk live in to not know about this?

                    You really think there's a world where common people have access to affordable healthcare and other "socialist"  programs AND a secret surveillance state that is indistinguishable from Wall Street wages secret war on progressives and labor and populist Democrats?

                    History has shown over and over again that the real purpose of the surveillance state is to subdue Leftists with their dangerous talk about economic fairness, environmental sustainability, empowering black people, and generally infringing on the 1%'s privilege of making perverse profits at everyone else's expense.

                    This is the historical record, not just here, but throughout the world. So this comment by Remembering Jello was equivalent to saying, "I would trade a lifetime of being trapped in a cage with hungry alligators as long as I don't have to worry about being eaten by wild animals."

                    But lastly, this isn't a choice we have to make. And frankly, it's sheer scumbaggery to keep insinuating, if not stating it outright, that those of us who are adamantly opposed to allowing our 4th Amendment rights to be withered away are somehow impervious to all other issues.

                    My priorities are simple. I want every single American to be able to live a decent happy life, and raise happy secure children, free from civil and economic oppression, in a clean and sustainable environment.

                    That's what I fucking live for. And it really doesn't take too much intelligence to realize that that goal is not possible without an open, democratic government, that answers to its people, and not the other way around.

                •  They've got you right where they want you. (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ZhenRen, artisan, cslewis, twigg, northsylvania

                  They're holding your child's future for ransom.

                  Nice government we have going here.

                  BTW, you'll never get the security you want for your daughter, as in, the kidnappers will never give up what they've got on you.

                  We either figure out a way to swap out all the criminals in our government, or they'll just figure out more ways to extort from us what they want; all of our financial security.

                  They want us and future generations to be little more than indentured slaves living in fear of their retribution. And they are damned close to being there.


                  "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandies

                  by Pescadero Bill on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:32:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I am worried about your daughter, (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ZhenRen, Sylv, northsylvania

                  and all those like her, getting the medication and health care they need; I am also worried about her use of that medication being held against her, to deny her jobs or housing, or whatever, if it is discovered through that surveillance.

                                   Just my two cents,
                                        Heather

                  Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                  by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:31:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Without the 4th amendment (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cslewis

                  The State, serving Wall Streets interests, will provide health care, but it will cost us dearly (as is evident -- I don't even have health care, and I can't afford it).

                  And when you try to publicly assemble to protest that, you will be surveilled. You will be infiltrated. You will possibly be beaten and jailed.

                  And about that strawman: No one said freedom and rights were more important than health care, but if you're suggesting we should give up rights, then you are opposing everything democracy is based upon.

                  I think health care is a right. I think having a living wage is a right. As well as housing.

                  These rights, together, could be called the right to live. Separating these issues into special interests is an act of dividing the public into factions who battle each other, which plays into the hands of the 1%.

                  You arguing on their behalf, and you seem not to realize that.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:38:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  fine, trade all you want (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ZhenRen

                  for yourself and your family; sure, but you don't get to trade away my rights to be free from unwarranted surveillance.

                  EVER.

                  and,  "if you force a binary decision, I know which way I'll go."

                  “Vote for the party closest to you, but work for the movement you love.” ~ Thom Hartmann 6/12/13

                  by ozsea1 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 12:06:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site