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View Diary: Allow This Brit to Remind Some of You What Matters to Americans (205 comments)

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  •  If we had anything resembling (10+ / 0-)

    "True Democracy"

    I wouldn't have written the Diary. Have you been around for the last few election cycles?

    What people want is to feel that someone is listening to them, and addressing their concerns.

    The American people are exactly the same as people everywhere, in that respect.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 04:49:12 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I thought this was satire at first (6+ / 0-)

      First of all, your major premise is inaccurate. Polls have shown repeatedly now that Americans care very much about the NSA spying scandal.

      But even if we pretend that you are correct, that people only care about jobs, health and education, are you really arguing that we should only care about those issues too?

      I'm sorry, but I've seen a lot of dumb arguments used to defend Obama and the status quo in general around here, but this one takes the cake.

      The reason why so many are so concerned and focused on this issue is because it's dreadfully important. Maybe you can't grasp the danger of allowing a handful of individuals, operating in secret, to be able to pull up on a computer everything a senator or congressman or a labor leader or a anti-war activist has ever said on the phone, in an email, or text message, but fortunately, most of us with brains, and even a dim grasp of history, can. And we realize that, regardless of what the masses may think, we have no choice but to stop this usurpation of power.

      •  Yeah ... (13+ / 0-)

        You wanna add some irony to your partronising.

        You think anyone outside the Beltway, or a liberal Blog, puts your final paragraph above Jobs, Health and Education?

        That's why we keep losing!

        You make the additional mistake of apparently believing that I don't care about the spying, simply because I don't have my hair on fire.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 05:36:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My point was that civil rights, (5+ / 0-)

          and their importance, are not predicated on the whims or wishes of the public.

          And to answer your question, I never said people cared more about the NSA scandal than jobs.

          It was your wording that invoked the either/or dichotomy:

          In no particular order, here is what folk care about:




          Deliberately or not, the implication there is that those are the only issues they care about. You could have said "here is what folk care about most" and we wouldn't have a disagreement on that point.

          But you were clearly trying to create the impression in your diary that the public really doesn't care about this issue, which according to polling date, is patently false.

          You then proceed to equate legitimate opposition to unconstitutional spying on innocent Americans as obsessive navel gazing.

          Which really leaves me wondering why I'm even bothering to have a conversation with you. Now that I think of it. Too much coffee again. And obviously too much free time.

        •  Only one comment about this, twigg: (6+ / 0-)
          You think anyone outside the Beltway, or a liberal Blog, puts your final paragraph above Jobs, Health and Education?

          That's why we keep losing!

          If people only care about Jobs, Health and Education, and that's "why we keep losing," why are the GOP winning in many states that have an abysmal record in all three of these issues, and make them worse once in power?

          It seems to me that people vote against their own self-interest all the time, especially if these are the issues that matter most to them.

          And I'm afraid I have to add to my own list (which, of course, includes climate change):

          SEVERE ECONOMIC INEQUALITY (which keeps getting worse)
          VOTING RIGHTS (ditto)

          "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

          by SottoVoce on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:24:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You refined the list (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sylv, Kevskos, congenitalefty, artmartin, Gurnt

            I'm good with that.

            You won't win by talking about "Economic Inequality", because it's a concept .... But you can build it into a platform as part of the job creation meme.

            The entire point is that as elections approach we need to drive the conversation to matters that people are worried about TODAY

            I don't suggest the other things have gone away, but I do think that they are not election winners.

            Some are missing the point. I am not suggesting that things like spying are not important, I am simply saying that they are not topping the list of voter concerns.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:29:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Our problems are so much larger than just three (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greenbell, artisan, Dianna, Kombema, cslewis

            issues. And today, I think Bill Moyers placed his finger on the real problem:

            BILL MOYERS: We are so close to losing our democracy to the mercenary class, it’s as if we are leaning way over the rim of the Grand Canyon and all that’s needed is a swift kick in the pants. Look out below.

            The predators in Washington are only this far from monopoly control of our government. They have bought the political system, lock, stock and pork barrel, making change from within impossible. That’s the real joke.

            And I have a problem with this:
            Do I think the current President sux on some of these things?

            Well no, I don't.

            If you can't see Obama's culpability in enabling the predators in Washington to gain monopoly control of our government, then I think we're in real trouble. The Democrats have decided that it's okay for a Democratic president to cede some of our greatest achievements to the republicans...that is incredibly sad on so many levels.

            Some of the best and most passionate progressive writers have left this site, just like they've abandoned other progressive blogs, and it's because they have given up hope that the neo-libs, who keep defending Obama, will do the right thing...look at what is happening to MSNBC...and they still don't have a clue.

            Tackling only three issues - which we have hammered into the ground for almost five years -- and hoping that it will turn our party around is just very short-sighted.

            If we lose our democracy, then it won't matter what problems we will be game over. We won't have any other choices, just the drivel that the corporations will allow.

        •  Well, heck, Hope and Change too (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dianna, ZhenRen, Kombema, cslewis

          Words don't do it.  Even low information voters get that.  Any politician says education, health, jobs.  Sheesh, I have a centrist Senator who does nothing but mouth platitudes
          like that but what gets funded?  Black budgets for the NSA, cruise missiles, monoliths in Utah, military bases disguised as embassies.  

      •  I've seen this false dichotomy being pushed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        here by a few people and also find it very disquieting.  I don't understand why so much effort is being put into it.

    •  Twigg, where have you been? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, cslewis

      Remember Occupy? Do you think thousands of people rallied all over the country in a movement that sprung up overnight occurred because we didn't know we don't have true democracy?

      That the system is broken is precisely why they went to parks instead of relying solely on the voting booth. And they were surveilled, infiltrated, violently attacked by the State, and dispersed. Laws were changed so that the the protesters could be legally evicted from various locations of assembly. The surveillance State declared them terrorists. Reports surfaced of planned assassinations.

      Were you there? Did you see them? Did you hear them?

      We protested for jobs, for education, for health care, for an end to the Wall Street hegemony, and we were violently attacked, beaten, gassed, sprayed, arrested, in some cases severely injured, by local militarized police who, with help from the Federal government, coordinated a nationwide violent suppression of the movement.

      And now I see individuals here who ridiculed Occupy, misrepresented its activities, and generally were lukewarm or even unsupportive, now acting as if all the left worries about is the fourth amendment. Gee, considering the recent history, it is rather oblivious to not understand why the left wants rights protected.

      My god, what disingenuous nonsense. Newsflash: Occupy was all about jobs, education, and health care. And because of a crackdown which largely trashed civil rights, we were forcibly driven from the places of public assembly .  

      Here's a diary for you to read.

      Read that to the end, and then see if you still want to lecture me about jobs, economic disparity, education, health care, as if this issue hasn't been raised by the left. Be sure to read to the end. It's a narrative, so it won't be hard to get through.

      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

      by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 11:38:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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