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View Diary: Allow This Brit to Remind Some of You What Matters to Americans (205 comments)

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  •  ZhenRen ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    claude, Remembering Jello

    You can't eat rights.

    I understand the point you are making. It matters, okay?

    But I am talking about getting elected, and while it still matters, it matters less.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 05:38:58 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  short version: (9+ / 0-)
      It's the economy, stupid
      h/t to WJC

      don't always believe what you think

      by claude on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:18:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The problem isn't getting them elected (5+ / 0-)

      The problem is who they sold their soul to in order to get elected and what those people expect in return.  

      And even the ones who lose talk about jobs.  Romney must have said jobs 10 zillion times.  Job creators.  They know how to destroy perfectly good words.

       

      •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sylv, Onomastic

        That is a structural issue .. a political issue ... not an election driver.

        Personally the one thing I would have liked the President to spend rather more time on, is Campaign Finance Reform.

        The trouble is that all sides are so heavily invested in the current system, that it will take a veto-proof majority to fix it ... and they have to want to.

        It is the single problem that so hampers good work on many other issues.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:48:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The problem with that is that if things (5+ / 0-)

      like climate change, and civil rights, and human rights, and legal accountability for torture aren't addressed during the election then the winners can just say that they don't have a mandate on those issues and therefore they will not do anything about them.

                         Standing for justice and accountability,
                                       For Dan,
                                       Heather

      Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

      by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:31:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They say what they like anyway (0+ / 0-)

        once they are elected.

        John Boehner and his crowd were elected in the House on a promise of jobs.

        How many jobs bills have they produced.

        Picking the candidates who have the right qualities is a primary process.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:24:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So let me get this straight : (5+ / 0-)

          1) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture in 2009, when the President was newly in office, because he had so much else on his plate and we needed to give him time.

          2) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture during the 2010 election season, because there were important things to talk about and it would possibly end up getting Republicans elected.

          3) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture during 2011 and 2012, because we might get Mitt Romney elected.

          4) You are now saying we cannot talk about legal accountability for torture during the 2014 election season because it might end up getting Republicans elected.

          WHEN exactly ARE we allowed to address this VERY important issue ?

                  Standing for justice and accountability,
                                     For Dan,
                                     Heather

          Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

          by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:08:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sylv

            Not what I am saying at all.

            We did talk about it, and we should continue to do so.

            Pointing out what the priorities are to the electorate is just a reminder. It is not a prescription.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:12:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, no, following the 2008 election, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ZhenRen

              we haven't talked about it, or pushed for it to happen, nearly enough, and yes, those of us who care about the issue have been told not to talk about it repeatedly because of different election cycles. I had hoped that this would not continue, but this is how it starts, being told that the public doesn't care about it. Then, as the election gets closer we will again be told that it's too important to elect Democrats to push on this issue and risk the election.

                         Standing for justice and accountability,
                                          For Dan,
                                          Heather

              Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

              by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:14:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Strawman (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      artisan, Chacounne, Ray Pensador, cslewis

      Of course you can't eat rights. This isn't an either/or situation. That is the strawman assumption. The false choice foisted on the discussion.

      Elections, voting, free speech to protest elected officials, the right to assembly to protest such officials, the right to organize without being surveilled, all are part of that.

      Thus, the message of OWS: The issue of jobs, education, health care was central to the theme of protesting the hegemony of Wall Street, which controls all of these issues.

      But unfortunately, the electoral process is broken, and pretty much run by Wall Street these days, which is why OWS sprung up all across the nation, even the world, overnight.

      And now people are acting as if these issues were ignored in favor of rights? All of these issues are interrelated. One doesn't come without the other. You can't fight for jobs without the right to wage that fight.

      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

      by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:09:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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