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View Diary: NSA bugged UN headquarters, European Union, and UN nuclear watchdog organization (267 comments)

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  •  Some of the comments here... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q, DeadHead, Demeter Rising

    really scare me.  People are really saying this is a good thing, or that it's okay because other countries do it?  People drive drunk too; doesn't make it right.  

    Never gonna look at this place the same way again.  I thought we liked privacy and transparency.  Guess not.

    •  This is not drunk driving... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      duhban, Tony Situ

      This is what countries do to protect their interests. They spy on everyone else. This is not an illegal activity by our laws. This is the mission of the NSA, CIA and other intelligence agencies. They get information by any and all means.

      If you didn't realize that this IS the world live in every day then you just got your wake up call.

      "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

      by Wynter on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 05:32:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bull (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DeadHead

        You go on and accept it with pleasure.  I'd rather the world be a better place than accept the status quo.  I'll leave that to the Republicans.  Just because everyone does it, doesn't mean I have to assume it's right, despite your flippancy.

        •  Flippancy? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tony Situ

          It's reality. If we were talking about domestic spying I would be appalled. But we are talking about spying on foreign dignitaries and diplomats. This is standard operating procedure of our spy agencies. This isn't about right or wrong. It's also not about Republican or Democrat. No politics is part of this. It's the way our country gathers intelligence. You are trying to put the Bill of Rights on something that has nothing to do with it.

          I find your reaction to be the most strange. You think if the United States foregoes all spying on countries that they will just "play nice" with us? Outside our borders is a dangerous world that doesn't always follow the same view as we have. It's nice to keep a positive outlook, but to keep us safe as a country we need intelligence on how things truly are. We wouldn't have survived this long if we hadn't been for these efforts.

          "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

          by Wynter on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:25:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, no, no (0+ / 0-)

            I never mentioned the Bill of Rights.  That applies to our country and our citizens.  Not anywhere else.  So don't say I did that.  It's a lie.

            I'm not big on the safety argument.  I have my own morals and beliefs on ethics.  And one of those is a complete respect for privacy unless you're being threatened by a specific entity.  Spying on Iran, Russia, China...  That's fine.  They actively work against our interests all the time.  But western Europe doesn't.  Why would we spy on them?  You think that Germany is aiding the terrorists?  That England is plotting world domination?  

            It may be the way the world is, but I don't have to like it or support it.  I'm not good with examples, but take pollution.  It bad, but some places at the moment can't live without it due to the need for cheap energy and the like.  However, in time I hope that pollution will be dialed down dramatically and those places won't need to use such harmful ways to get energy.  I don't support pollution.  I know it's needed, but I don't go along with people saying it's not an effect on climate or health either.  It's a bad thing, but without it a lot of people would die.  I just really hope that like these spying programs, someday we won't need it.

            I'm not trying to come off as rude or angry.  That's just the way my typing comes off as at times.  I feel strongly about privacy.  It's my #1 concern, so sometimes when I see people trying to take that away, even from people in other countries, it bothers me.  

            •  I hear you. (0+ / 0-)

              I stated the BoR since that is where you sounded like you were coming from. I understand the moral point of view you have. I wish the world could match your ideals. But sadly, the human race is full of deceit and lies that we cannot simply trust a group of people because they say and act like our allies. It's just the way people are at their basest level. They hide things and work against your interests not telling you unless they are caught red handed. Spying is just the necessary evil to keep things even. Consider the spouse that knows damn well there is something going on, but can't get their partner to come clean. They worry about it until they end up checking everything and still worry. Trust is a very limited commodity and something very dangerous to rely on when you have millions of people to safeguard with it. Proof is a better position to stand behind.

              "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

              by Wynter on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 12:15:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I could say the same thing (0+ / 0-)

      the naivety expressed here by people that are just outraged and shocked that a government would dare spy on another makes me wonder what world they think they live in.

      You think we are the only nation doing this? Good gods welcome to the real world

      Der Weg ist Das Ziel

      by duhban on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:05:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please. (2+ / 0-)

        No, I don't think we're the only nation doing this.  I do think we're the nation doing this the most though.  We have more resources.  

        I don't like the NSA.  Never have.  I believe more in privacy and ethics than one-upping another country.

        As I said in my reply to the other NSA apologist, just because things are done a certain way does not mean I have to agree with them, or accept the world as it is.  If that was the case in the past, we'd still be practicing eugenics.  It's like the old saying, "If your friends jump off a bridge, are you going to too?"  

        To me, spying is unethical, especially when there is no belief of secret wrongdoing.  I do not think a country like modern day Germany is working behind our back to help terrorists.

        However, I know how you think on this issue.  I've read your blog post from back when PRISM was made public.  That's your view and I respect it.  I may be considered naive, but I think the only reason our government feels the need to wiretap everyone on the face of the planet (that's hyperbole, by they way) is because of the huge mess our foreign blunders have got us in since after WWII.  Now that's not completely the truth.  There are bad groups and people out there that want to hurt our people or our country.  I think the CIA is more useful in those cases.  I don't think Germany or the UK or France is out to hurt us.  I can understand hacking Iran or China or Russia...  But western European countries?

        •  a meaningless and unprovable 'point' (0+ / 0-)

          by what metric do you make that distiniction?

          You can not like the NSA all you want but we do need it and to assert otherwise is incredibly foolish. You can call me all the names you want nothing changes that reality.

          Der Weg ist Das Ziel

          by duhban on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:43:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Where did I call you a name? (2+ / 0-)

            I didn't call you anything.  I think you might need to re-read what I wrote.  The most I did was call you an NSA apologist.  That's not name-calling.

            Also, I never asserted that we didn't need the NSA.  I stated my opposition to it.  There is a difference there.  I don't like armies either, but I know we need them.  I still think there are better ways to handle things than war.  I really dislike war, but realize sometimes it's needed, like in WWII.  Doesn't mean I have to go around supporting wars.  

            I also made it perfectly clear that these were my opinions, and that being the case, if you don't agree with them, that's fine by me...  but you're not going to change my mind here.  It's not like I can do away with the NSA anyway, so I don't see why we're arguing.  We're two people that have already made up their minds on this matter, and it's evident we're not going to agree.  

            Think me foolish all you want, but don't call me a name-caller, when I didn't name-call.

            •  NSA apologist IS name calling (0+ / 0-)

              you allow for no ambiguity you allow for no complexity no unless I agree with you I am an 'apologist'. And you certainly didn't mean that as a compliment.

              Der Weg ist Das Ziel

              by duhban on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:01:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No... (2+ / 0-)

                Apologist: a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial. (google definition)

                Apologist: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something. (Merriam-Webster)

                You defended the NSA, saying it's needed.  This news has been blasted around the world today, in many cases in a harsh light.  Therefore it's controversial.  You fit that definition.  It's not a negative word, it means you spoke on it's behalf.  You did that.

                It's a definition.  Name-calling would be calling you something horrible, completely un-true or obscene.  

            •  Don't worry madmojo. It's what he does: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DeadHead

              propping up strawmen and feigning offense at non-existing insults.

              'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

              by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:03:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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