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View Diary: Unfit judge rules rape victim who killed herself 'was as much in control of the situation' as rapist (171 comments)

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  •  No, we're not saying 14-year-olds can't have (18+ / 0-)

    relationships.  We're saying that it's wrong for a grown man, at the age of 48 years old, to abuse a position of authority and have sexual contact of any kind with his minor students.

    A 14-year-old cannot consent, and thus the teacher who took advantage of her with abuse of authority should go to prison and rot there for 20 years or so.  

    Furthermore, it doesn't have to include hitting or punching or kicking in order for it to be rape.  You can be manipulated into having sex against your will psychologically.  It has the same traumatizing effect on the rape victim regardless and doesn't make her any less of a victim.  For all you know, he could have been telling her that she had to have sex with him or else her grades would "mysteriously" go down to failing.  

    •  Re (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nailbanger
      You can be manipulated into having sex against your will psychologically
      While this is trivially true when one party is underage, it is impossible for adults to be similarly 'manipulated', at least in any way that makes legal sense.

      If someone decides to have sex for whatever reason, that's their decision. Period. For adults, both parties saying "yes" is a 100% defense to a charge of sexual misconduct.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 01:18:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What a load of crap. (8+ / 0-)
        If someone decides to have sex for whatever reason, that's their decision.
        I'm assuming you'll return to your keyboard when you're in a different state, and reconsider that post.

        Politics is about the improvement of people's lives. - Paul Wellstone

        by occams hatchet on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 01:59:04 PM PDT

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        •  guess there's no such thing as abuse or coercion. (12+ / 0-)

          we should just wipe those offenses out of our vocabularies.

          Because it could never happen that a boss says, "you will sleep with me or lose your job" to a person who desperately needs the job to provide for a family. So, when that other adult says "yes" to the sex, it is completely impossible for a crime to have been committed. After all, they're both adults.

          And when a person has been the subject of abuse and is psychologically frail and a predatorial "partner" latches on and whittles away at self-esteem on a constant basis, so that there is a "relationship" which the predator controls, no problem. Two adults! Nothing to see here.

          And when a man says to a woman, "if you don't have sex with me, I'll rape your daughter" and she agrees to have sex with him, well, hey, that's an adult decision!

          (Directed at Sparhawk, not occams, by the way.)

          Adults can be victims of abuse, manipulation and coercion, too. Anyone in a vulnerable position is quite susceptible to it.

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          by UnaSpenser on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:15:04 PM PDT

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      •  Unless there is coercion (0+ / 0-)

        If someone puts a gun to your head, or deliberately drugs you, and you say "yes", it can certainly still be considered non-consensual.  If we're talking about some subtler kind of psychological coercion, that's going to be harder to prove, but if there is real proof of coercion, "yes" may not mean "yes".  The hurdle for proving that is generally relatively high though.  It's like trying to prove that a contract was signed under duress.  

      •  Adults can and are (12+ / 0-)

        manipulated by others without violence.

        - use of date-rape drugs
        - "have sex with me or you lose your job"
        - "have sex with me or I'll forget you paid your rent"

        It is not only a teacher-student relationship that can create this kind of disparity in power.

        You are fortunate not to have much imagination in this area.

        Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

        by elfling on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:14:45 PM PDT

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        •  Re (0+ / 0-)
          - use of date-rape drugs
          Find me a case where someone coherently consented after being drugged without their knowledge.
          - "have sex with me or you lose your job"
          This is actually not a crime believe it or not. It's a civil tort that you can sue the offender over. In any case it involves consenting sex.
          - "have sex with me or I'll forget you paid your rent- use of date-rape drugs
          This is extortion which is a crime, but it's the extortion thing that makes it criminal, not the sex aspect.

          The things you mention are various civil and criminal offenses and sleazy behavior, but they are not rape because they involve the consent of both parties. Consent under (nonviolent) duress is still consent!

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:37:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It doesn't matter the age (4+ / 0-)

        I was 23 when I was coerced into sex against my will.  Rape is rape.  Period.

    •  Agree on first paragraph (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, I'm saying it's wrong and should be punished.

      Stongly disagree on the second paragraph.  The idea of having people rot in jail for 20 year for non violent crimes, really for just having sex, is generally abhorrent to me.  

      As for being manipulated, yes that can happen, but noone suggested that it happened here.  What everyone seems to be reacting to is simply that there was sex.  

      And for that, as I mentioned earlier, the evidence is quite strong that it does not have the same traumatizing effect.  There isn't even consistent evidence that there is a traumatizing effect.  From the link I provided earlier:

      Following is a review of the empirical research to date on the reactions of and impact on teens to each of the types of statutory relationships. The majority of the studies on impact have focused on adolescent females who are or were involved with adult males. For all types of relationships, the evidence is mixed. Some studies show negative reactions, others show positive, and still others show neutral. However, all of these studies are correlational, and therefore, it is impossible to ascertain whether these reactions are truly outcomes of the statutory sexual relationship itself.
      A range of reactions has been cited for adolescent girls involved in statutory relationships with adult men. Neutral and negative reactions have been shown using self-report measures of functioning and self-reports concerning how the females view their relationships. Positive reactions have been found when researchers asked the females how they feel about the relationships.
      A range of studies are cited beyond that, some showing negative effects.  But the evidence is far more mixed than it is for victims of any form of coercive sexual abuse.

      I would really like to know what Cherice Moralez's view was on this.  Did she feel she had been manipulated or coerced?  Did dhe believe she was a victim?  We know she committed suicide, we don't know why.  I don't know whether she was traumatized by this sexual activity, or whether she was fine with it and more traumatized by the people calling it rape.  That matter to me.  The heavy hand of the law can be pretty manipulative and abusive as well.

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