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View Diary: To my fellow Obamab*ts - Snowden/Greenwald bashing is Missing the Point (318 comments)

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  •  The strange (6+ / 0-)

    and surprising thing was when this all broke,  there were a proliferation of Snowden diaries, and in those diaries if you didn't 100% agree with the prevailing view of him as hero, for some reason that was equated with "obamabot".

    To this day I have no idea what one has to do with the other.

    Luckily over time the Snowden diaries ended.  Even with all the arguing, at least we don't seem to be arguing about Snowden or Greenwald much anymore.

    Still arguing about Obama.  Let's just agree to disagree.

    It's all about the NSA.  

    There's still room for disagreement there, even among people who agree the abuses are important and have to stop.

    •  "You started it" (9+ / 0-)

      is the best you can do?

      Because that's essentially what you just wrote as a justification for not talking about the actual issue.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:14:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's what you hear me saying? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, tommy2tone, doroma, alain2112

        I don't care "who started it".

        It's not important.  I agree with the diarist that our feelings about any of these players are important.

        I say "it's all about the NSA", you see that as "not talking about the actual issue"?

        Come. On. Get. Over. It.

        I AGREE WITH THE DIARY.  

        Let's move on.

        •  I'm just frustrated because (8+ / 0-)

          I still don't see any real discussion about the issue. And people are still making it about Snowden. I can't remember a single diary where the issue was discussed in any depth in the comments.

          And I'm not blaming you. My previous comment obviously was, but that was frustration speaking. Sorry.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:20:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm frustrated as well (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, SoCalSal

            I posted some questions above.

            I've asked them before.  I've posted them with images of the players all in Guy Fawkes masks, because their personalities don't matter.

            Only a couple of people actually answered the questions, but I'd like everyone to focus on them.  

            I want to hear a real discussion.

            Who started it doesn't matter.  I can vouch only for myself.  The constant rounds of fighting - I don't have a history of that and neither do some of the other folks that have been unfortunately labeled and thus their input tagged as trolling.

            But I've always really only wanted to talk about the situation.  What's really happening, and what we can do about it.

            I look forward to a non-meta, non-strident diary about this subject.  A Snowden/Greenwald/Obama/distraction- free diary about the NSA.

            No sly references to rox/sux/trolls/sensitive people/past comments, etc etc.  Clean slate, to the extent possible.

            I think there will still be a debate.  A really contentious one.  At least we'll be talking about something meaningful.

            •  Posting them with Guy Fawkes masks (0+ / 0-)

              is problematic.

              Guy Fawkes definitely meant to do physical harm to the government.  I am an expert on his (and the fact that he really was only a bit player) and the whole conspiracy, and I actually don't blame the people involved, but they really meant to blow everything to kingdom come, even their own relatives, and then take over.

              And the plot was backed with a lot of money.

              Guy Fawkes does not represent the little guy heroically standing up against oppression.

              Just look up the guy my screen name is named after.

              •  And I used to think it was this guy: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kharma, triv33

                http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                "The Catte, the Ratte and Lovell our dogge
                rulyth all Englande under a hogge."

                If it's
                Not your body,
                Then it's
                Not your choice
                And it's
                None of your damn business!

                by TheOtherMaven on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 07:29:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I guess you're right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Onomastic

                but my only point is that it didn't matter who they all were.

                I posted the same questions twice in other diaries, without any images at all.

                I'd been pegged a "roxxer" and stupidly attempted to argue the point, in many diaries.

                My questions were dismissed, or I was ridiculed/attacked, or people read those same questions and concluded that I wanted a huge surveillance state.

                I don't know .  .  .

                I just want to talk about the way forward.  What do we agitate for?  What good is it doing expressing ever increasing outrage and taking it out on other people here?

      •  Actually, delphine raised some meaningful issues (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Susan G in MN, delphine

        and questions a few comments up. The questions are tough ones, I don't have the answers either. I think it must be significant somehow that no one has responded to that comment of delphine's.

        Squabbling is so much easier, I guess.

        “We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children” ― Chief Seattle

        by SoCalSal on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 05:51:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You can do a separate diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rick Aucoin

      to discuss the moral turpitude of Snowden if you want, aside from what he revealed.

      But most people think what he revealed is far more important.

      •  Don't want to talk (0+ / 0-)

        about Snowden.

        At all.  He is irrelevant except that this country has to come to terms with what it means to be a whistleblower and why it's important to protect whistleblowers - and journalists.

        We seem to have lost our way.

        When it comes to the NSA, though, his "moral turpitude" or lack thereof is completely irrelevant at this point.

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