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View Diary: The American People Have Spoken: No More War Abroad, More Jobs at Home (158 comments)

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  •  Well, the answer is,... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kpardue, artmartin

    it cannot be justified in the sense of what's moral and right and fair. But when has the world ever turned like that?

    IMO, one must look at the givens, and do the best from there. One given, is that Israel feels surrounded by its enemies, and was founded on the premise of "never again." That's just the reality.

    Now, that does NOT excuse them for things we think are wrong, but, and you don't address this, Israel has not used its chemical weapons on its people, and we have no evidence to suggest that they will, other than your assertion that "they have contingency plans to use them or they wouldn't have them."

    I don't think it's that simple. What is pretty unarguable is that chemical weapons are available and being used in Syria, whether by Assad, rogue elements of his regime or the rebels. I think that pretty much covers it.

    And again, WHEN Israel shows that it is willing to use those weapons, or when it shows that they can't control those weapons, then I think your comparison would be more apt.

    "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

    by StellaRay on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 04:38:55 PM PDT

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    •  We will have to agree to disagree. Like the... (38+ / 0-)

      ...drafters, signers and ratifiers of the CWC, I don't favor the concept of waiting until there are actual dead people because Israel's chemical arms security is breached or Israel uses its chemical weapons against its own people or the people of one of its neighbors.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 04:54:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm SO fine (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MRA NY, Meteor Blades, deltadoc, artmartin

        with agreeing to disagree. I have great respect for you, and am happy to have this interchange with you, and don't feel AT ALL threatened that we may disagree here and there. In fact, imo, this whole site would be better off if we agreed to disagree more often, and move on from that to where ever we CAN go and where ever we CAN be effective.

        But, and you know, there's always a "but," I would just say that while you say this:

        I don't favor the concept of waiting until there are actual dead people because Israel's chemical arms security is breached or Israel uses its chemical weapons against its own people or the people of one of its neighbors.
        ...you do not seem to have the same concerns about Syria. Please point out where I'm misunderstanding your POV. And if you don't care to that, A OK w/me, and over and out.

        We agree on so much MB, as do most on this site, although you would not know it day to day. I'm more than willing to see where I'm wrong, as the days progress.  

        "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

        by StellaRay on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 05:16:20 PM PDT

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        •  I DO have the same concerns about Syria... (23+ / 0-)

          ...and will be ecstatic when those now holding chemical weapons (as the regime there clearly does and others may as well) surrender them to the international community and sign onto the treaty that 97% of the world's nations have already done.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 05:57:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And so, slap me five, in the end (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RustyBrown, artmartin, tytalus

            we find more to agree with, by far, than disagree with. I will be as "ecstatic" as you are, when ALL chemical weapons are surrendered to the international community.

            MB, I really, really believe in a global community, because it's here, even if some don't yet get that. This IS a new concept in our times, as if you review history, and I know you have, you know that the concept of a "global community" is relatively new.  And, I think this is a foreign concept to many Americans. They just don't see it yet.

            Evolution is SO freaking slow, and if we see an honest inch forward in our lifetimes, we're doing, frankly, rather well. I know we want more. As have all those who came before us.

            IMO, one of the greatest challenges to the US is to SHEPHERD the concept of a global community, to be the leader in THAT. To get over any idea of "American exceptionalism" and instead, BE EXCEPTIONAL, rather than talking about it.

            One of the ways I think we can, and have in the last days done this, is being willing to "BACK OFF." Attribute that to anyone you want to, but for today it is true.

            The ability to "BACK OFF" and reconsider, is at least for me, one of the things that as I grow older, I depend on to lead a good life.

            "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

            by StellaRay on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 06:35:58 PM PDT

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            •  My undergraduate degree is international... (5+ / 0-)

              ..relations with an emphasis on Latin America (Class of '69). This included a lot of economics and international law. So I've thought about this stuff, and all its frustrating dimensions for a long time. It would be welcome indeed if we could make it work as well in life as it does in the textbooks.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 06:43:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yep. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                antirove, artmartin

                My undergraduate degree was in History, (Class of 74, at the University of Wisconsin, Madison---which if you know the times there, you know how one might start out as an adult in life, with a WHOLE LOT OF QUESTIONS)

                From there, I taught history for a couple of years and then moved on, for whatever reason, I wouldn't dream of boring you with the details.

                Yet still, I LOVE the study of history, read about it often, even if I've left its discipline as a career. And you know, my experience in my studies is different than yours.

                In my study of history, it never worked out all that well in the text books. In fact, my studies underlined exactly where it didn't work out well for the human race, over and over again.

                And yet, still, we're here. I cheer that, and hope for that to continue, in the name of my son and beloved nieces and nephews and neighborhood kids. That's why I fight for what I do.

                I've had a pretty good run, and frankly, it just isn't that much about me anymore, but what I can give to those who face a new world, as every generation does.

                One thing's for sure, if all of this isn't eternally humbling to thinking people, then we aren't thinking.  

                "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

                by StellaRay on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 07:16:29 PM PDT

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          •  WINCE. (0+ / 0-)

            Upon rereading this conversation, I wish to say something more.  

            I accepted that you "DO have the same concerns about Syria" without saying what I think needs to be said, on second blush. I was so eager to find common ground, that I did not ask what I might have, given more time to think about it.  So, now I will ask this.

            Let me change  your comment above, and you tell me if you still agree.

            I don't favor the concept of waiting until there are actual dead people because (Syria's) chemical arms security is breached or (Syria) uses its chemical weapons against its own people or the people of one of its neighbors.
            Can you sign off on my changes to your quote? Yes, or no.

            "A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues." Theodore Roosevelt.

            by StellaRay on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 09:20:46 PM PDT

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          •  Good luck on getting whichever of the over 1,000 (0+ / 0-)

            rebel groups that possess chemical weapons to turn them over.

            On the other hand, if we get Bandar and Saudi Arabia on board, I'm fairly sure they could convince at least some of the non-state actors to relinquish whatever chemical weapons they have. I can't think of anybody else who could. We sure couldn't.

            I dunno, maybe the CIA could.

            The party of Kennedy is also the party of Eastland. The party of Javits is also the party of Goldwater. Where is our party? Where is the political party that will make it unnecessary to march on Washington?

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 09:16:59 AM PDT

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      •  So let me understand you (0+ / 0-)

        Are you in favor of attempting to force both Israel and Syria to give up their chemical weapons?

        I could sign on to that, myself.

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