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View Diary: Free speech under attack in Denmark: Convicted for criticizing Islam (174 comments)

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  •  Indonesia has legal protections for women (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SixSixSix, Noisy Democrat, Samer, JDsg

    The implementation has left something to be desired, but it is the largest Muslim country in the world.

    It's good to remember that the legal protections that women have here in the US are a result of women fighting for those protections and weakening religion, not of religion be a source of equality for women.

    •  True, but in the Muslim world, they aren't (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SixSixSix, eglantine

      making as much progress. Lady Gaga had to cancel a concert in Indonesia after death threats. Women in parts of Indonesia are being forced to wear hijad and niqab (face veils). Things aren't going all that well in Indonesia.

      •  They're making progress (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SixSixSix, JDsg

        It might not be as fast as you want it to be, but we didn't get where we are over night. Dismissing Muslims because they aren't all living in western democracies is absurd.

        And we can look at abortion in the US if you want an example of women being shit on by Christians.

        •  I'm not dismissing Muslims (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SixSixSix, Luftmensch

          I'm saying that we in the US need to take a hard, serious look at the problem of Islamist anti-democracy movements and figure out how to deal with them. Assuming that every Muslim in the world, or even every Muslim in the West, loves democracy and wants to support it is naive and demonstrably wrong. Large organizations have declared that our system of government is evil and should be abolished; we need to take that in and decide how to deal with it.

          •  The right wing hates democracy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Noisy Democrat

            and worships authority no matter which religion they may be a part of, or if they are a part of no religion. That's where the support for anti-democracy movements come. Look at Greece and the rising Fascism there right now. Anti-democracy movements are much broader than just Muslims.

            But, I think that censoring speech is part of the problem. That's making things less democratic.

            •  I think part of our challenge will be to figure (0+ / 0-)

              out how to stand up against the anti-democracy Islamists without empowering the anti-democracy Right. There's an excellent book called The Suicide of Reason: Radical Islam's Threat to the West that talks about this dilemma and the need for us to engage with the issue and work it through.

              •  You're talking like we have to deal (0+ / 0-)

                with Islamist groups as a threat to the US. They aren't. They are a threat to the people being oppressed by them. Just like Assad isn't a threat to us but is a threat to those he's oppressing.

                •  They are a threat to the US (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kane in CA

                  Look at the Muslim Brotherhood. They are a vast, multinational organization that is very, very serious about replacing Western democracy with sharia law. A captured document released by the FBI in 1991 lays out their multi-decade plan and says that the Brotherhood must understand that "their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands ... so that ... God's religion [Islam] is made victorious over all other religions." (You can get a quick idea of the problem if you watch the trailer for Jihad in America -- everything in it is documented and backed up by experts, some of them Muslims and ex-Muslims.)

                  It might seem fantastic, but these people are organized, well-funded, and serious. I'm sure that back in the 1800s -- not so long ago -- there were Native people saying "These Europeans aren't really a threat to our way of life. A few wagon trains, a few farms -- big deal. The idea that they could fundamentally change things here is nonsense." We see how well that worked out for them.

                  •  You're seriously out there (3+ / 0-)
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                    eglantine, angry marmot, JDsg

                    The Muslim brotherhood is not going to come take over the US. That's idiotic. If any religion is going to take over the US it's the Dominionists. They have actual power here and have been doing things like restricting women's access to abortion. You've bought into the right wing line, simple as that.

                    •  I notice a stunning lack of evidence (0+ / 0-)

                      in your claims. "That's idiotic" isn't much of a counterargument.  

                      I am worried about the Dominionists, but they aren't the only scary right-wing religious group out there.

                      •  I notice the stunning lack of evidence (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        angry marmot, JDsg

                        that the Muslim Brotherhood is any sort of threat to the US. It's fear mongering pure and simple.

                      •  Demographically (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JDsg, gzodik

                        it just isn't possible, at least not now and probably not for centuries. Muslims are a tiny proportion of the U.S. Even if they were 100% on board with these ideas, which they emphatically are not, they couldn't take over the government.

                        I'm not a fan of pretty much any form of religion, particularly the conservative varieties, whether Christian, Muslim or any other stripe. I also tend to feel like we may be too loathe to criticize religiously based things occurring elsewhere that if Christians in the US were doing them, we would not accept. But, I'm not worried about the Muslim Brotherhood and feel that the anti-Sharia laws that some states have passed are just silly in a country that is 98% non-Islamic. Even if they wanted to disrupt our form of government (which most don't), they don't have any way to do it.

                  •  the farther your comments push to the right (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, alain2112, JDsg

                    hand side of the page, the more obvious your filiation to the "Eek! Eurabia!" nonsense and "Stop the Islamization of America [et cet.]" movements becomes.

                    Please proceed, Noisy Democrat...

                    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

                    by angry marmot on Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 11:55:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  They are a threat to us, though the threat (0+ / 0-)

                  has not fully manifested yet. So far, it's just been people killed in terrorist attacks, and we haven't had very many. But the conflict is slowly coming to a head. Within 10-20 years I think we will be grappling with it more directly, and the sooner people get educated about the issues, the better. It's like global warming -- the seas aren't swallowing our cities yet, but we need to figure out what to do about it now.

    •  Most religions are a barrier to equality..... (4+ / 0-)
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      AoT, Noisy Democrat, eglantine, erush1345

      Most religions (all?) are a barrier to equality. I'm an atheist, so I don't have much love for any religion. That doesn't mean I don't like the people of various religions. I just don't respect most of the dogma, particularly the parts that are regressive, bigoted and theocratic.

      My point was simply that there are officially Christian, and Christian-dominated countries, which have equality enshrined in their constitutions or anti-discrimination laws. Most officially Muslim/Muslim-dominated countries do not.

      As Meteor Blades says, "Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe."

      •  As someone else pointed out (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JDsg, SixSixSix

        Afghanistan also has equality enshrined in it's constitution. For all the good it does. Iran is getting better as well through the work of various women there. I'm amazed we gave up on passing the ERA.

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