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View Diary: Israeli Soldiers Throw Sound Grenades at EU Diplomats Bringing Aid to Displaced Palestinians (172 comments)

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  •  Why is the Israeli gov't hellbent on reinforcing (16+ / 0-)

    antisemitic stereotypes?  Though not Jewish myself, I have always been sensitive to antisemitism, and the more so having spent a decade living in NYC back in the 60's-70's.  With the massive usurpation of West Bank land for illegal settlements ever since, my sympathy for Israel is sorely tried.  I'm fine with the vast majority of the Israeli people, but these settlers and their enablers really need to be slapped down hard for their own (and the rest of the world's) good.

    Real plastic here; none of that new synthetic stuff made from chicken feathers. By the morning of 9/12/2001 the people of NYC had won the War on Terror.

    by triplepoint on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 09:58:43 AM PDT

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    •  But don't blame the people. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      la urracca, chujb, Enzo Valenzetti

      The blame belongs squarely to Zionism, to the Israeli government. Most Israelis I know (and I know a lot) are secular. Though secular, some of them are Zionist, some are not. I also know observant Jews who are NOT Zionist, which makes for super interesting conversation for a westerner like me.

      I'm just Double Tapped the hell out.

      by pajoly on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 10:08:22 AM PDT

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      •  Yet they continue to re elect Zionist governments. (10+ / 0-)

        I'm not about to paint them all with one broad brush, anymore than we should paint all of Texas or Florida with one, but I also can't accept just saying "it's not the people".  It is, apparently, a majority of the people, even though not all.

      •  you're using a very narrow definition of (8+ / 0-)

        'Zionism'.

        For many, 'Zionism' is simply the desire for a homeland where Jews wouldn't be persecuted all the time.

        For some, it's expansion from sea to sea--but not for about 99% of 'Zionists' that I've met.

        So, you can be a Zionist and support a two-state solution, as I do.

        •  Zionism means the return of (0+ / 0-)

          the Jewish people to their ancestral homeland.

        •  qsdf (0+ / 0-)

          The problem is that "the desire for a homeland where Jews wouldn't be persecuted all the time", isn't innocent and has lead to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Something which is still ongoing by the way.

          Also, Israel has stolen so much land, that a two-state solution seems more or less impossible at this point.

          •  no ethno/nationalistic desire is totally innocent. (0+ / 0-)

            Never.  There are always some who will exploit it.

            Why should the Jewish people, who have suffered an enormous degree of persecution into the modern era be denied the right afforded to adherents of so many other religions of the world?  i.e. their own political space?

            I always find it particularly ironic when Christians, Muslims, and whomever else, groups who represent the dominant culture in so many respective regions of the world (and often through great episodes of violence) suggest that somehow Jewish self-identity through statehood inherently unacceptable.

            That said, I am fully against Israeli settlement policy and always have been.

            •  xcvb (0+ / 0-)
              Why should the Jewish people, who have suffered an enormous degree of persecution into the modern era be denied the right afforded to adherents of so many other religions of the world?  i.e. their own political space?denied the right afforded to adherents of so many other religions of the world?  i.e. their own political space?
              Because a) most of the world has moved to becoming pluralistic societies, where all religions are welcome, and b) enforcing that right required/requires the ethnic cleansing of the previous inhabitants of that space.  
              •  while I agree that policies in the occupied (0+ / 0-)

                territories need to stop, Israel is a pluralistic society.  Is there bigotry?  Unfortunately, yes, as in any country, and that needs to be worked on.

                What you refer to as 'ethnic cleansing' (I don't, even though I oppose it) is not something that has to occur in order to have a Jewish homeland.  But yes, Israel does have to quit the territories.

                •  &é"' (0+ / 0-)

                  Israel is explicitly not a pluralistic society, it is a religious state. Religious freedom isn't enough to be pluralistic.

                  What you refer to as 'ethnic cleansing' (I don't, even though I oppose it) is not something that has to occur in order to have a Jewish homeland.
                  My point is that it has already occurred. The massive amounts of Palestinian refugees didn't come from the occupied territories. They came from the core Israeli territories. Also, the removal of Palestinians never really stopped after the civil war, but continues till this day, through various softer means.
      •  Perhaps we identify with the Israeli (14+ / 0-)

        electorate because, as an example, "we" didn't elect George Bush and yet he led us into a criminal war, in our names, that brought the condemnation of the world on us.

        However, the situation in Israel is a bit different.

        While Bush was elected by the slimmest of margins (some say not at all), a poll of Israelis from last year found that:

        A majority would be in favour of 'apartheid' policies

        Two-thirds say Palestinians should not be allowed to vote if West Bank was annexed, while three in four favour segregated roads

        58% believe Israel already practises apartheid against Palestinians.

        A third want Arab citizens within Israel to be banned from voting in elections to the country's parliament.

        Almost six out of 10 say Jews should be given preference to Arabs in government jobs, 49% say Jewish citizens should be treated better than Arabs, 42% would not want to live in the same building as Arabs and the same number do not want their children going to school with Arabs.

        link

        While there are many Israelis who don't agree with the above, a many more do. And admit to it.

        BTW, Israelis have achieved their state, and it is a nuclear power. IMO, it's not Zionism that's driving the rightward shift in Israel. It's that they have grown accustomed to the benefits (to them) of an illegal occupation (free land, free water, negligible resistance from the occupied population, etc), and those benefits are not compatible with liberalism (equal rights, anti-occupation stance). Hence a move to the right.

        The Bible is 100% accurate. Especially when thrown at close range.--God

        by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 12:58:20 PM PDT

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        •  Bigger part is the upsurge in emigration to Israel (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy

          from the former Eastern Bloc after the fall of the iron curtain.  Israeli politics is rather unique in that in any given election, ~1/3 of the electorate are immigrants.  As the immigrant demographics shift (in this case towards those who have lived under more statist regimes and bring those prejudices with them as they move), the electoral demographics shift with it.  A significant portion of the immigrant population are coming from situations where, until recently, one group maintained dominance over another by ensuring their military supremacy while undermining the independence of the other.  This understanding of the world has warped the situation even worse than before.

          I would also note that the poll referenced has had some questions raised as to the manner of sample selecting.  I'm not a statistician, but I think that even for a nation as small as Israel, ~500 respondents isn't really good enough for a determination on popular views.

          "There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. - James Morrow

          by kirrix on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 02:17:47 PM PDT

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        •  Supported unconditionally by the US. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, Johnny Q, Enzo Valenzetti
        •  Not to mention cut-rate labor. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q, waiting for lefty

          "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

          by JesseCW on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 02:53:16 PM PDT

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        •  i actually agree with your last paragraph (0+ / 0-)

          (a rarity, I know....!)

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