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View Diary: Thanatos: this is the end (160 comments)

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  •  but it is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, marsanges, karmsy

    the Apocalypse is a peculiarly Western idea. Climate change as an Apocalypse, destroying all in its path is End Times thinking. If it (and I'm not arguing the point) as bad as the worst predictions, the 'powers that be' will change. They always do. They may be worse, they may be better, but they will change.

    47 is the new 51!

    by nickrud on Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 12:06:27 PM PDT

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    •  you see it in action (5+ / 0-)

      in Syria. The destruction of the livelihood of the agrarian population through climate change there was, Im told, the fundamental condition that destined Syria now to collapse into civil war, where in Assad´s father´s generation modern weaponry was still able to keep a subjugated population together.

      And you could very well call that "the old Syria has come to an end". That is not end time thinking, it is just realism. Realism, taking into account the effects of climate change, means that regardless of who wins their specific civil war, "the old Syria", based on the marginal agrarian viability of theor countryside, is gobe forever. It will not come back.

      Of course "something" will take its place.. Time as such will never end, so far, "end time thinking" is indeed self contradictory. But human constructions such as states and societies can and do end, and we can see it coming.

      •  I've not read anything that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marsanges

        talks about the effects of climate change on Syria and its relationship to the civil war there - I'd be happy to be given some references.

        But, I will posit, that isolating one single country's experiences as emblematic of the global experience will require some references.

        47 is the new 51!

        by nickrud on Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 01:23:18 PM PDT

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        •  hm, fair (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Susan from 29

          here is one example

          note - of cause noone takes up arms to shoot at the sun. The reasoning is - under normal circumstances, the repression apparatus would have been up to the task of keeping order and a stable state, for better or worse, using violence if bribery or persuasion didnt work, a la the bloody Homs affair of Assad the Elder. Now however, such a large portion of normally rural population was driven into the cities that the repression apparatus was overwhelmed - and the population driven into the cities couldnt be told to go back to a countryside that no longer provided a livelihood.

          Thats the suggestetd causation chain, in which the immediate political issues of the civil war are the proximate causes, but the climate change provided the wholesale destabilisation that made the descent into civil war possible in the first place.  

          you can debate it, but at least I think its a reasonable way how a final end to a societal condition (loss of agrarian sustainability) can be observed without it just being "end times ideology".

          •  I'll quote one part of that link (0+ / 0-)

            that is other than speculation.

            CW: But I'd also add, you can’t go back in time and say if Syria had taken care of drought better, they would have avoided the civil war. Because climate change is only one factor. Syria still would have had problems with democracy, with human rights abuses, with existing politics. But in general addressing these issues is going to be an important part of natural security.

            So, basically, this article is about might have could have but no did.

            47 is the new 51!

            by nickrud on Sun Sep 29, 2013 at 02:51:50 PM PDT

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