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View Diary: Native Americans Declare War on Fracking. Canada Declares War on Native Americans. Updates. (188 comments)

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  •  But it is ok (12+ / 0-)

    For the police to shoot rubber bullets and use tear gas on peaceful protesters?  
    Riiight.

    Passing a law that the Constitution doesn't allow does not negate the Constitution, it negates the law that was passed. Secret courts can't make up secret laws. SORRY FOR THE TYPOS :)

    by snoopydawg on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 06:54:53 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  as defined by a court of law yes (0+ / 0-)

      personally speaking I think it's better then going in with lead bullets and batons but maybe you disagree?

      Now if you want to argue that the police should not have access to those tools you can. But that's a legislative/judicial argument and has no place here. Nothing the police did was illegal and in point of fact wait two weeks to try and find a peaceful solution speaks to great restraint on their part. And what did that get that? Well a giant mess that seems right now to be more the fault of the protesters then officers just doing their job.

      Der Weg ist das Ziel

      by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 06:58:44 PM PDT

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      •  Courts define legality, not what's "Okay" n/t (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jpmassar, duhban, MichaelNY, caul, Laconic Lib
        •  I think we've discussed this before (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpmassar

          in terms of nations and civilizations I don't invoke morality because what you consider 'okay' and what say a mass murderer considers 'okay' is unlikely to be even close.

          Granted that's a pretty extreme example but how about the secessionists back in the States? I mean they think it's okay to overthrow the government or just plain secede from the Union because we elected a black man with a funny name.

          I'm not going to argue the law is perfect, it's not (the same way anything human made isn't) but it's the best impartial way to keep civilization running.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 07:33:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The law isn't impartial (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban, MichaelNY, caul, Laconic Lib, OHdog

            And you know it.

            And you most certainly do invoke morality. That's what you're talking about when you say that this protest is bad PR. You mean that it's immoral. But instead of actually saying that you say that it's bad PR. "Bad PR" really means that it offends your values, and the values of those like you.

            The real issue here is how we figure out among ourselves what is "Okay". And you aren't offering an answer..

            •  :shrug: it's the closest to impartial we can make (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              it and I stand by my statement that it is a lot better then any alternative including doing what ever you feel like cause you feel like it.

              And no nothing in anything I've said here invokes morality. The PR thing is pure logic and rationality. The clearest and simplest and most effective path to the goal is to pay attention to how it looks because you can't garner sympathy if you think like a bunch of hoodlums by setting cars on fire.

              Come on AoT you should know by know that I have no problem saying what I think no matter what response I am going to get. This isn't about morality and I encourage to reread above as to why it should never be about morality.

              As to finding an answer, well I think that's a bit beyond the scope of the diary but the short answer is there is no easy answer to what is 'okay'. And thus that's why we have democracy because since there is no universal consent the next best alternative is the democracy.

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 07:58:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No it's not the closest (6+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                duhban, KenBee, jpmassar, caul, BYw, Laconic Lib

                I can think of numerous things that we could change that would make it more impartial. One: Change election day to a holiday and pay jurors $40 an hour for their time. And get rid of most drug laws.

                •  eh none of that is the police's fault though (0+ / 0-)

                  Der Weg ist das Ziel

                  by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:14:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But it's still part of the institution n/t (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    duhban, caul, BYw
                    •  a completely separate part though (0+ / 0-)

                      That's like blaming Bob cause John punched you in the face.

                      You want those things to happen? Then you need to elect people to do so not blame the police.

                      Der Weg ist das Ziel

                      by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:22:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, not seperate part (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        duhban, caul, BYw

                        The laws enforced are the core part of what the police do. The laws enforced are the entire reason the police exist.

                        •  and this is where I lose you (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AoT

                          because yes I get that but the fundamental balance and check against the police is they don't get to decide what those laws will or will not be.

                          The police didn't decide that pot should be illegal and beer shouldn't be. That was the legislative aspect of government.

                          :sigh: I really just don't understand how you can't see that.

                          Der Weg ist das Ziel

                          by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:40:55 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  So then what stops the police from (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            duhban, caul

                            "just following orders"?

                            I mean, we could totally set up a legal framework for genocide in the US. We have before. By your rationalization the police should just ignore the immoral aspects of the law because it's their job. Were the cops that rounded up the Japanese sent to internment camps acting morally?

                          •  I know I said I was walking away (0+ / 0-)

                            and really I am I just wanted to answer this question really quickly as I think it's important.

                            Like any institution that requires following orders any police officer at any time can claim an order is unlawful. If it's an unlawful order then they don't have to follow it. Of course iiit's a lot more messy then that but there's always been an 'out' for such things.

                            Of course some orders are easier to show they are unlawful then others but it's not like police are some unthinking entity fixated on breaking some heads.

                            If you want to respond to that, by all means but now I reall am walking away. You stay well.

                            Der Weg ist das Ziel

                            by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:25:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  duhban (10+ / 0-)

        Have you ever seen the lumps and bruises rubber bullets leave?  
        And if they hit the eye, boom, blindness.
        They hit the head, possible skull fracture or traumatic brain injury.
        TBIs are horrible. I have been fighting the effects of mine for 37 years.
        A direct hit to the heart could cause a cardiac arrest.
        When protesters are being peaceful, there should never be a violent response.
        Look at what happened to Scott when a cop shot a canister at his head.
        This is their land they are trying to protect.
        They have tried talking butTPTB won't listen.
        Haven't First Nations been screwed enough?  
        Treaty after tresty was broken when corporations found resources on their lands.
        Quit defending police violence.

        Passing a law that the Constitution doesn't allow does not negate the Constitution, it negates the law that was passed. Secret courts can't make up secret laws. SORRY FOR THE TYPOS :)

        by snoopydawg on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 08:42:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  first and mostly importantly (0+ / 0-)

          I'm sorry about your TBI.

          That said I am still waiting on your alternative, should the cops decide on their own if they want to enforce a law? Right now I see a lot of complaining but very little in the way of alternatives being offered.

          You seem to regard anything the police do as illegal, I don't. It's really that simple.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:22:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban, Bisbonian, caul, aliasalias, OHdog

            What I am commenting on is their use of force.
            Snipers?  For un armed protesters?  
            Over kill
            There were also snipers on roof tops during the OWS protests.
            Those cops were being paid for by the banks who gave NYPD $4.9 million.
            Who knows who the sniper represented.
            Cops or mercenaries?  
            Have a nice night.

            Passing a law that the Constitution doesn't allow does not negate the Constitution, it negates the law that was passed. Secret courts can't make up secret laws. SORRY FOR THE TYPOS :)

            by snoopydawg on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:28:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the police have no idea what could happen (0+ / 0-)

              so I'm sorry but I have no problem with snipers being present. I do have a very big problem with snipers acting unless there's actually a justification for it. Like it or not but snipers can be invaluable in a situation like this or OWS where in you might need to target one individual in a crowd without risking hitting anyone else.

              But then again I hope that doesn't happen and you know what? I bet most cops would agree with me.

              You do realize most cops will go their entire 15+ year career and never be involved in a shoot out? Never have to draw their gun?

              You have a good night as well

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 09:35:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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