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View Diary: The Morning F Bomb (65 comments)

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  •  ;) I think that's just one of those sentences (11+ / 0-)

    where the real meaning is a few layers down. I see I think high-rises kill more birds than wind turbines but I hear People are very selective in what they complain about, and it doesn't seem to trouble them that something they're already accustomed to kills birds. Floja is correct that birds are a straw man here, inasmuch as we kill birds and other creatures all the time with almost everything we build and do, but only wind turbines take the rap. Cars kill bunnies, but no one says there should be no cars because of the terrible toll on bunnies.


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    by belinda ridgewood on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 08:13:30 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah - this is why I would be a terrible (8+ / 0-)

      politician.  Thanks for the this comment belinda as it really made me think about how I view these kinds of things.  I would ideally like to not care (or more accurately if I'm being introspective I would say that it often doesn't really even occur to me to think deeply about) people's motivations for making arguments.  Mostly I just think   - is this a good argument or not?  And being full of self doubt (some self doubt is a good thing, too much not so much) I often take the other side's argument more seriously than I should.  I also tend to be very careful when I say things.  Hence my sig line which is something that really speaks to me.

      Ideal World Statement  I see what you're saying but, from my point of view, that is making a case for rejecting a position by saying  'the people making the argument aren't sincere' which (to me) is not very compelling.  It does make me more inclined to view their argument skeptically but, in the end, it is the quality of the argument itself (do the data actually support an important enough effect of turbines on bird populations to take some action?), rather than its source, that (I hope) is the primary basis of any decision I might make.

      Practical Statement - the situation  I'm inclined to pay attention to multiple points of view here because I think that this situation is likely a not insignificant tradeoff.  To me the unspoken message from Floja's statement is 'we should be doing more to prevent birds from being killed by buildings AND by turbines'.

      Practical Statement - more generally I realize taking all arguments at face value isn't always possible because of the appalling behavior of some people.  It became apparent in the 1970s that it wasn't possible to 'debate' anti-evolutionists because they would just spout off a large number of spurious arguments (the Gish gallop).  The same thing is true for climate denialists.  However necessary it may be, the idea of dismissing arguments based on the source always makes me uneasy.

      thanks for making me think.  Off to class.

      "To see both sides of a quarrel, is to judge without hate or alarm" - Richard Thompson

      by matching mole on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 09:05:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sincerity (6+ / 0-)
        I see what you're saying but, from my point of view, that is making a case for rejecting a position by saying  'the people making the argument aren't sincere' which (to me) is not very compelling.
        You actually addressed the sincerity issue farther down, but what makes me especially angry is that very insincerity of people who declare windmills eyesores when they know very well that they're a lot more attractive than the smokestacks that, while odious, are eyesores that are lining their pockets.

        Now, of course their insincerity doesn't mean that they don't occasionally stumble upon an argument that has some truth in it.  I am, actually, affected by the bird argument, but only enough to find ways to mitigate it, not enough to tear down the windmills.

    •  I wouldn't say straw man without a lot of (4+ / 0-)

      interviews. A lot of bird conservation types are legitimately very concerned and don't oppose windpower per se. In CA, for example, the best wind sites are also all key migration routes and choke points, so their complaint has been why not site them somewhere slightly less optimum and thereby cease maximizing bird kill, why not replace latticework towers with smooth columns so they aren't inviting nesting sites, etc.

      In some areas, it may be merely those in opposition to wind power, but I'm pretty sure that is not nearly universal. I know plenty of green heads who want wind power and who also don't want them killing large numbers of birds.

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

      by enhydra lutris on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 09:53:16 AM PST

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    •  The largest killer (4+ / 0-)

      of birds is domestic cats. They kill billions every year and might be responsible for eliminating entire species. How come cats aren't forced to be on a leash or kept indoors?

      •  My area has the perfect solution (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jakedog42, Monsieur Georges

        for the domestic cat problem.

        Coyotes.

        They also seem to think there is a chihuahua problem, but that would be a matter of opinion rather than fact.

        I used to let mine out. The latest 3 have never been outside, and will not be allowed outside ever. Both for their safety and that of the birds and lizards. They are allowed to eat all the bugs they want.

        Repetition is the death of magic. - Bill Watterson

        by Floja Roja on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 06:15:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wish more people (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Floja Roja, Monsieur Georges

          would do this with their cats. My daughter and granddaughter live with me and the have three cats that they let roam. Every day the cats bring home two or three dead birds. That is 1,000 birds a year just from one house. I try to convince them to keep the cats in, but they won't listen.What'ya gonna do.

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