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View Diary: Fed Court: Ministers now have to pay income tax on their "free housing" (323 comments)

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  •  I would think so (6+ / 0-)

    Since they are getting the same type of lodging for free.  Good diary WoE.

    " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 06:34:49 PM PST

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    •  It will be interesting if a difference is parsed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gchaucer2, phonegery

      Catholic Priests vs Ministers.

      I suspect Priests (a vocation) will not be deemed ministers (a job).  I don't agree with this.  We will see.

      It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

      by War on Error on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 06:36:59 PM PST

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      •  I don't think the law knows this word "vocation" (0+ / 0-)

        That's a religious designation, not a legal one.

        Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

        by Nowhere Man on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 06:48:40 PM PST

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        •  Vocation is english and will be treated as such. (0+ / 0-)

          It has nothing to do with religion.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 07:10:00 PM PST

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          •  I think you missed my point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueMajority

            The use of the word "vocation" (from the Latin vocare, to call) to refer to a  religious calling -- that would be unknown to the law, because the law doesn't have a clue as to what a "religious calling" would be. (Or, if it does have a clue, it should promptly forget it.)

            Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

            by Nowhere Man on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 03:49:41 AM PST

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            •  You missed my point. English words not (0+ / 0-)

              clearly terms of art, where critical to the proper understanding of the matter at hand are assigned the english language meaning proper to the situation. If "vocation" a in calling is relevant, it will be used i that manner. I don't see how it would even come up, being outside the statute, but it if did, it would be used appropriately.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

              by enhydra lutris on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 07:08:12 AM PST

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              •  all priests are ministers (0+ / 0-)

                not all ministers are priests

                Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

                by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 10:25:20 AM PST

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                •  In one sense, but under the law, not so much (0+ / 0-)

                  for the purposes of section 107. In fact Rabbis and Cantors are ministers of the gospel for purposes of sectio 107.

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                  by enhydra lutris on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:24:40 PM PST

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                  •  not so much? (0+ / 0-)

                    your comment either has nothing to do with what I said

                    or supports my comment

                    i can't figure out which.

                    "not all ministers are priests" clearly includes the fact that rabbis and cantors are ministers, but they are not priests

                    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

                    by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:33:26 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  No, really and truly, you missed my point (0+ / 0-)

                You seem to have hyperfocused on the definitions of "religious calling" and "vocation". My reference to the dictionary definitions was a synecdoche -- "a figure of speech in which a term for a part of something refers to the whole of something, or vice-versa." When I said that the law wouldn't know the meaning of a "calling", that was a figure of speech meaning that (AFAIK) the law simply doesn't give a damn (so to speak) what a "calling" is. From the legal point of view, a "called" minister or priest is exactly the same as an "uncalled" minister or priest.

                In fact, you seem to share this point of view when you wrote:

                I don't see how it would even come up, being outside the statute
                Yes, exactly!

                Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                by Nowhere Man on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:48:08 PM PST

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                •  THe court would take cognizance of the fact (0+ / 0-)

                  that, throughout history, a minute percentage of preachers, ministers and other such whotnot claim to have been called to the extent necessary to interpret and apply the law.  I see no situatin where such a claim could be remotely relevant, but I am not all nowing.

                  Calling, if it exists at all, other than an unverifiable assertion,  exists only in the mind ot the person called. Joan-of-Ac heard voices, as did Reagan and the Son of Sam as well as multitudes of others. I gues all of these felt called, but there is no way to know if any really were. I suspect not, because there is no evidence based reality construct that requires god and hence no caller and ergo no calling nor callees. The Supreme Court, however, is loaded with satuanch Catholics and may find otherwise, should it ever somehow become relevant than minister 687 claimed to have been called.

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                  by enhydra lutris on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:37:42 PM PST

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      •  No difference (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        War on Error

        But on reading through the ruling, it does look like more established churches are better off (for now), because section 107(1), which says that homes provided by the church are exempt, I believe remains in force.

        This ruling appears to affect only 107(2), which applies to churches paying housing allowance to their leaders.

        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

        by Phoenix Rising on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 07:06:38 PM PST

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      •  Won't matter. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        War on Error, TrueBlueMajority

        Clergy get treated as clergy by the law.

        Rabbis, ministers, imams, priests, etc. -- they're a single class under the law for mandated reporting status, etc., etc., etc.

        No way are they going to create a singular special privilege for one faith tradition. That would be blown away by the first court to consider the issue. And upheld by every court above it.

        "Be just and good." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson

        by ogre on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 07:51:09 PM PST

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