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View Diary: Fed Court: Ministers now have to pay income tax on their "free housing" (323 comments)

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  •  google how much real estate is Church owned (17+ / 0-)

    throughout the country...both urban and country...none of it generates any taxes for local government.

    Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

    by Keith930 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 07:46:16 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, I know (16+ / 0-)

      Those with the biggest, most accusatory+fear-mongering signs own large plots around here.

      And, they never seem at a loss for funds to raise their roofs higher and wider to Heaven.

      I've also seen a number of smaller startups, which began in strip malls for the most part, move and expand as they snarfed up more real estate with additional adherents/backers.

      Plus, there's the consideration of religious "discounts" for religious affiliations - we have a severely insular orthodox Jewish community nearby in which a sizeable portion of the adult residents claim to be religious leaders/researchers for their own, house-based places of worship.  They not only gain tax exemptions, but shopping discounts from local businesses and state assistance.  It goes even deeper - many are guided to not obtain civil marriage certificates and instead marry within the religion, still living together and raising families . . . but, the female spouses obtain public assistance by claiming to be single mothers.

      I'm not much enamored of anyone - however sincere - claiming that their religious purpose or linkage in life somehow should guarantee them special rights above their neighbors, based solely on such claims.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 08:23:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Same is true of the polygamous households (10+ / 0-)

        Which live openly here in Salt Lake County, Utah.  There are several of these huge, many winged new homes here.  A wing for each wife.  One is near the town center in plain site. No governing bodies seem to mind.

        It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

        by War on Error on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 09:36:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  At some point, could you do a link to an (5+ / 0-)

          arial view of such a home? Or two or three? I feel that soany people are in denial that those polygamous families really do exist. Denial, or simply don't know.

          This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

          by AllisonInSeattle on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 04:19:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'll see if they show on google earth (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW, wader

            As long as doing so won't compromise their privacy.

            Live and let live, right.  I do worry about the kids though.

            These huge homes are quite new

            There's one older one  but not as grand.

            It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

            by War on Error on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 07:14:53 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry, Allison (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wader

            Google Earth has decided to NOT work today.  Oh well.

            It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

            by War on Error on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:56:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ok dear. After much wrangling (0+ / 0-)

            I have managed to clean up my hard drive so that Google Earth now works.

            I have made screen shots; however, do you think it is right to publish them?  I was careful to make sure no street names showed, no people, no cars.  I'm not feeling quite right about publishing these.

            You opinion?

            It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

            by War on Error on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 12:16:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I thought that shit was against the law! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Notreadytobenice, mamamedusa, wader

          Wut th....
          Is it popular now because of that gross Sister-Wives show? Do teevee ratings trump the law?

          "He went to Harvard, not Hogwarts." ~Wanda Sykes
          Teh Twitterz, I'z awn dem.
          Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.

          by OleHippieChick on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 04:20:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How can it be illegal (5+ / 0-)

            If a man wants to continue having affairs after he's married, and his wife doesn't complain, how is that against the law?

            A government that denies gay men the right to bridal registry is a fascist state - Margaret Cho

            by CPT Doom on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 06:18:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agree if they're not married. Ugh. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              War on Error

              Ugh. Otherwise, it's polygamy. Ugh.

              "He went to Harvard, not Hogwarts." ~Wanda Sykes
              Teh Twitterz, I'z awn dem.
              Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.

              by OleHippieChick on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 06:53:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  there's married and "married" (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wader, Catte Nappe, JerryNA

                paradoxically, this is one more example of the separation between church and state :-D

                they don't get marriage licenses in these arrangements.  they are not legally married.  They simply go through their religious ceremony and call themselves married that way.

                you can have as many ceremonies as you want and call yourself married in the eyes of God but without the paper from the state you are not married in the eyes of the law.

                on the other hand, you can get married by the state and never have any religious ceremony.  you are still married.

                so it's not against the law if they don;t have marriage licenses, and they don't.  and even if they did, the marriages would not be valid.  so at most those guys are married to one woman and the rest are just consenting to a polyamorous relationship

                Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

                by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 09:15:25 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  been going on for a long time (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            War on Error, OleHippieChick, wader

            but rising lately.

            Look up the jeffs cult or the lost boys of utah.

            •  They represent one sect of polygamous (0+ / 0-)

              Mormons.

              For good or ill, the majority of them aren't into marrying 16 year olds against their will or throwing out their sons.

              I'm no fan of religion in general, of the Mormon church in particular, or of polygamy.  But, consenting adults are a lot different than that Jeff's cult.

              "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

              by JesseCW on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 07:26:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Polygamy is a crime against society (0+ / 0-)

                it creates terrible social instability.

                •  If people freely choose (0+ / 0-)

                  Polygamy (or Polyandry), that's no ones business but theirs and it causes no harm to anyone.

                  Unless you believe that grown men and women need to be told who it's ok for them to live with, sleep with, have children with, or share resources with.

                  "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                  by JesseCW on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:34:58 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm sorry what part of social harm (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Catte Nappe, JerryNA

                    don't you get?

                    The arab world has polygamy, and it's contributed to
                    massive violence, instability and terrorism.

                    The Rich Guys have 4 wives,  that means for every
                    rich guy you have 3 poor guys with no chance of getting
                    a wife. Ever.

                    http://sheikyermami.com/...

                    Say the top 10% have 4 wives,  the bottom 30% will never
                    ever, ever have a wife.

                    we have the same problem in socieites with female infanticide. (China and India).  

                    India now has a 60/40 sex split ratio. China same way.

                    When men think they will never ever ever have a wife, they become pretty desperate.

                    there are things where individual choice leads to massive social harm.

                    •  There seems to be some part of "freely" that (0+ / 0-)

                      is utterly lost on you in your desire to control the sex lives of others.

                      "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 04:46:41 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Society gets to prevent social harm (0+ / 0-)

                        Say the Top 10% have 4 wives,
                        the next 10% have 3 wives,
                        the next 10% have 2 wives
                        and the next 10% have one wife.

                        that leaves the bottom 60% with no wife

                        Do you think that's good for society?

                        And how is this good for women?

                        Wife number 4 for Mitt Romney?
                        Do you think she has to compete with wife #1
                        for resources?

                        Stop blathering about freedom, and show me how
                        this is a good thing for anyone other then rich men?

                  •  They're also 'freely' taking advantage of public (0+ / 0-)

                    assistance. Those "single mothers" are being supported by the state when they're living in poly marriages, de facto.  Don't you see that as harmful?

                    One question- If a state has common law marriages, wouldn't this be illegal as bigamy, even without a marriage license?

                    I agree with patbahn, as well.

                    •  You think they wouldn't be if they were single? (0+ / 0-)

                      This attitude that all mothers must marry someone is extremely far right.

                      As far as I can see, this is primarily motivated by patbahn grotesque anti-Muslim bigotry.  It's like reading Pat Buchanan prattle on about "Superior Western Values".

                      But if this was to be found anywhere at DailyKos, I guess this was the diary in which to expect it.

                      "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 04:48:39 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's not just the mothers who are taking advantage (0+ / 0-)

                        the system.  It's the father.  Every extra wife is subsidized.  That's not the same thing as a single mother abandoned by an ex-husband or ex-boyfriend.  There's a huge difference between saying that society should not have to pay for extra wives versus saying that women have to get married.  In fact, I don't see a connection.  I don't think women need to get married to be in a relationship or to have kids.  I do think that any male still involved should be at least partially financially responsible for any kids, and for the wife if she's not working, not pushing off his responsibility on society.  Poor and/or single is one thing.  Gaming the system is quite another.

                        I don't see how pointing out that polygamy is "anti-Muslim bigotry", when patbahn's point was that polygamy on a large scale is bad for society, be it Christian or Muslim or something else.  Have you read about the "lost boys" problem in the fundie Mormon areas?  What they do to those kids is a crime.

    •  Actually, it depends on how it's used. (10+ / 0-)

      Some churches, universities, and other NFPs own real estate they rent or lease to individuals or for-profit entities for purposes totally unrelated to their tax exempt purpose. In that case, the income is subject to unrelated business income tax (UBIT) at the same rate any other corporation would pay.

    •  Nor do private schools, right? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Notreadytobenice, wader

      Please proceed, lemmings.

      by deminva on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 03:49:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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