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View Diary: Fed Court: Ministers now have to pay income tax on their "free housing" (323 comments)

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  •  Most Minister I Know - (3+ / 0-)

    Live in tiny, outdated parsonages.
    They work 60-hour weeks.
    And they are on call 24/7.

    Their income/benefit packages are a tiny fraction of others with a similar level of education and demands placed upon them - such as doctors.

    •  Doctors and Ministers (0+ / 0-)

      How do ministers have the same demands placed on them, even if a metaphysical education is taken as similar to a physician's? Because supposedly one's afterlife is at stake, compared to one's life?

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Fri Nov 22, 2013 at 10:09:02 PM PST

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      •  How Would a Person - (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ogre, TrueBlueMajority

        Who ridicules classical music appreciate Beethoven?

        •  How Would One Hand Clapping Sound? (0+ / 0-)

          What are you talking about? You're saying that since I don't believe in god or appreciate religion that I can't understand how demanding it is?

          But the government should appreciate it, right? So the government should believe in religious claims, and exempt from taxes, right?

          Wrong. If that's what you're saying, it's a tautological copout. Until you can prove that being a minister has the same demands on them as a doctor does, or at least make a convincing argument (metaphysics doesn't offer proof beyond tautologies, which aren't proof), it's just an empty claim.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:20:18 AM PST

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      •  Assumptions. (4+ / 0-)

        Probably 35-40% of my congregation are some stripe of Atheist.

        The education was required. But most clergy will tell you that their required education is/was out of date. Not the theology and ethics, but the parts that don't begin to provide the training for what actual parish life is like.

        60 hours+, yes. And most of that is spent in doing pastoral care and administration work. Pastoral care meaning going and being with people who are suffering and dying. Or have family suffering and dying. Helping them through making decisions about suffering and dying. Being with them while they do those things, so that they're not alone.

        And the data says that the role is more wearing than doctors. Doctors mostly step in, perform their work, and step out. The human-human interaction they do is limited, and often only just sufficient to socially lubricate the interaction they need to have for medical purposes. Being with people who are dying or losing some serious life capacity, for hours, day after day, week after week, just for the human-human interaction and presence. Yeah, that's the fun and games that makes up a big slice of ministry work. Holding a space for people to wrestle with questions, to have someone to ask questions of, as they try to figure out how they make peace with living incapacitated, or dying. Or having done something that will burden them for their whole lives.

        And then pivoting around to get paid a couple hundred dollars for pre-marital counseling, and developing a marriage ceremony, and helping them negotiate issues and family crises, and attending a rehearsal and then the wedding itself.  And pivoting back to provide a memorial service. Maybe for an elderly person whose life just ran out. Or a veteran who struggled and offended almost everyone around him and succeeded in dying alone, a suicide -- and the family is feeling guilty and ashamed, and angry and lost, as well as grieving.

        Cakewalk.

        "Be just and good." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson

        by ogre on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:43:48 AM PST

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      •  i assumed he meant the being on call 24/7 (0+ / 0-)

        Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
        Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 10:33:46 AM PST

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