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View Diary: Open Letter to Sockpuppets And Trolls (157 comments)

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  •  The barking is relentless. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ray Pensador, lostinamerica

    But they don't just disagree.  They disagree with his content, and they disagree with him - on everything, over and over and over.  Even substance,  when beaten to death, becomes oppressive at worst and spam at best.     A good guest is sensitive to their host, careful not impose, and never overstays their welcome.

    Why is this a fight that needs to be had????  

    What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

    by dkmich on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 03:16:33 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Since his diaries (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hey338Too, Cedwyn, fcvaguy

      all have the same content, then it must seem like "we" disagree over and over - nope, it's the same disagreement with the same subject, over and over.

      How anyone with the slightest degree of self-awareness can actually miss the irony in "Even substance, when beaten to death, becomes oppressive at worst and spam at best" in yet another "the world is overrun with trolls and shlls!" diary by Ray . . .

      Well, it's mind boggling, really.

      Many of us have been the target of these jabs and accusations.  We've had (in my case) a decade of goodwill here, enjoyed ourselves. Felt free to disagree or agree, wherever our hearts and minds took us.  (Except I/P, of course - a problem of the planet, not dkos)

      And suddenly there are the accusations.  The complete loss of the compassion of those we thought our peers.  They are aggrieved by behavior they treat us to, be we are disingenuous if we express that we are also aggrieved.

      We're accused of lying, or being something we are not, of believing things we don't, of having misrepresented ourselves for years, our expressions discarded as artifice, of being too dull and naive to notice our minds have been clouded by someone else's manipulations - or that we are doing the manipulation ourselves.

      Our comments no longer respected, but instead jeered and attacked.

      And so yeah, every time we see this SAME set of accusations and recriminations, we react the SAME way.  It's wrong.  Ray is wrong.  We disagree with "his content" and we disagree with HIM every single time he says this same thing which is often.

      Too often.

      •  Quick question... And this is a no-brainer: (0+ / 0-)

        First, I've written over 500 diaries.  I sometimes even write about a walk in the park, and share photos!

        Either way, if you feel so aggrieved, why are you here?  Don't you think that's a logical question.  Read your post again.  It's a pretty damning picture of Ray Pensador, right?

        By golly, here's what I think about you... I think that you've often come to my diaries and mischaracterized me (as in this post I'm responding to).  No, I understand that that is a matter of perception... You may very well be writing those things because deep down inside you believe them; but again, if you think those terrible things about me, why are you here?

        When was the last time you saw me in one of your diaries?  Probably never, right?  And you know why?  Because of opinion I've developed from your posts in my diaries.

        It is truly kind of bizarre that you would keep coming to my diaries if you have such a negative opinion of me, IMHO.

        •  Ray, the thing is... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          delphine, Cedwyn, fcvaguy, kj in missouri

          ... it's not PERSONAL.  If the premise of a diary is a repeat of something that someone has disagreed with in the past, then that person has the right to disagree as many times as the premise is proposed.  Rinse, lather, repeat.  That's all there is to it.  

          You can say the same thing over and over, and people can disagree with you every time you say what you've already said.  QED.

          Looking through the bent backed tulips, To see how the other half lives, Looking through a glass onion - John Lennon and Paul McCartney

          by Hey338Too on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:14:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How funny... Why would you think that this diary (0+ / 0-)

            refers in any way to Delphine, you, or any of the other handful of "critics" who showed up (again)?

            Why is this tiny group take so much umbrage to a diary like this?  I don't think I've accused any of them of being political hacks (paid or unpaid), sockpuppets, or trolls.

            Why the loud protestations (by the same tiny group of people)?

            I don't get it.

            •  Could be the mention (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hey338Too, Cedwyn, erratic

              of the "6" in response to a general comment about "ratfuckers" (trolls).

              Same premise:  there are a bunch of trolls here!

              Same response:  calm down, you're seeing bogey men in your fellow kossacks.

            •  Umbrage and loud protestations - oh my (4+ / 0-)

              I was responding to your comment by paraphrasing Delphine's excellent comment.  She's right.  Every time you write a diary with the same premise, the people who disagree with that premise have a right to speak - whether you like them or not.  It's not about you, it's about what you write - and that's exactly as it should be.

              You have your own website (which you link to in every diary) where you can voice your opinion and ban anyone you wish who disagrees with you.  On this site, if I agree or disagree with a diary or a comment, I am allowed to do so without your (or your "Fab-30's") permission.  On this site, you actually have the right to read and comment on Delphine's diaries; the fact that you choose not to says more about you than it does her diaries - and that too is exactly as it should be.

              Looking through the bent backed tulips, To see how the other half lives, Looking through a glass onion - John Lennon and Paul McCartney

              by Hey338Too on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:21:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  If I close my eyes I can hear that as an (0+ / 0-)

                impassioned speech! The indignation; the almost saving-the-world (Daily Kos?) from (whatever) feels so real.  Very well done.

                BTW, read what I always write.  If the fab-six is so disturbed with what I write, why do they keep visiting my diaries?  I think that's a logical question.

                As to why I don't visit diaries of the fab-six, well, again, if I've formed a negative opinion of them, why would I have any interest in visiting their diaries when there are so many great writers here?

                What does that say about me?  That I like to read good stuff, I guess?

                Okay, I think we're done here.  Moving on.  We'll continue in my next diary, maybe?

                •  "BTW, read what I always write." (0+ / 0-)

                  ROTFLMAO

                  Now we're done here!

                  Looking through the bent backed tulips, To see how the other half lives, Looking through a glass onion - John Lennon and Paul McCartney

                  by Hey338Too on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:52:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yep. We are. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ray Pensador, TheMomCat

                    And those of us familiar with your username will be expecting you next time there's a diary that questions all the center-right views you espouse.

                    Or one that talks about sockpuppets.

                    Because you are, indeed, somewhat of a regular in Ray's diaries. If not by actual comments you post, by your silent tips of comments made by others who, coincidentally, are on the opposite side of Ray in any given subthread.

                    And you also happen to be someone who got NR'd for uprating a slur made about Ray in a completely unrelated diary in which he wasn't even present to defend himself.

                    So I think you might have some credibility issues when it comes to passing judgement on this particular diarist.




                    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                    by DeadHead on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 11:29:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Perhaps the answer lies in the fact... (9+ / 0-)

                  ...that people aren't just talking to you when they write a comment; they are talking to whoever is here: lurkers; new visitors; people who haven't visited your diaries before.

                  It so happens that I don't disagree with everything in your diaries. In fact, I agree with a lot of what's in them. But I don't see much of anything new in those diaries. And other than a general call to activism—which large numbers of Kossacks are already engaged in across a broad range of issues—which you present in a know-it-all tone that often has an implicit undercurrent of I-can-see-it-why-can't-you-all, I don't see much in the way of specifics in that call.

                  I don't know about your other raders, but I want something concrete, some substantial, something that says this (or that) should be the target of our actions. The list of possibilities is long, from police brutality to the cessation of fossil fuel extraction and burning, from populist economic restructuring to an end of imperial foreign policy. Which of those matter most in your view, and what kind of actions will most likely bear fruit?  

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:59:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  MB, I don't know but something tells me that if (0+ / 0-)

                    I made it a habit to write diaries criticizing Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, or Virginia Foxx, among others, all of the sudden these very high standards you've postulated here for my diaries would vanish... What do you think?

                    Nevertheless, I would encourage you to take a look at these diaries:

                    1. Kick-starting The Rebellion: Innovative Ways of Supporting The Movement at The Grass-roots Level
                    2. I'm Spending The Biggest Shopping Day of The Year at Walmart!
                    3. The SF Mission District: Standing Up Against Gentrification And Evictions
                    4. My Experience At Occupy Oakland's 2nd Anniversary Rally Today
                    5. "Rise Up, Shut it Down, Oakland is The People's Town"

                    And I think you are familiar with the network of activists I'm been trying to organize; I think I have about 425 people who have signed up to my email list.

                    Regarding this:

                    But I don't see much of anything new in those diaries. And other than a general call to activism—which large numbers of Kossacks are already engaged in across a broad range of issues—which you present in a know-it-all tone that often has an implicit undercurrent of I-can-see-it-why-can't-you-all, I don't see much in the way of specifics in that call.
                    Many have said the same thing about much of what dominates the front page, although I don't usually engage in that criticism because thus far I've felt free to write about things that interest me.

                    And this:

                    I don't know about your other raders, but I want something concrete, some substantial, something that says this (or that) should be the target of our actions...
                    MB, as much as I would want to save the world, in reality I'm just one of many diarists here.  I believe I'm doing that which you said I'm not, but either way, don't you think you are setting up a pretty high bar for me...

                    I'm just some dude writing stuff.  People can choose to read what I write, or not, and if I make suggestions, people can choose to collaborate with me or not.

                    Finally, don't we have a pretty good system here to incentivize writers?  There is the rec list, tips, followers, etc., right?

                    •  Ray... here's an example.... (4+ / 0-)

                      Yesterday (or the day before?) you wrote a diary where you pushed local currency as a solution to some issues you raised. I understand what it is, but not a lot about how it can work. So, I asked a question or two, and others asked the same questions about how you would buy a car with local currency or pay your taxes with local currency to ensure you're able to collect Social Security in the future, etc. You didn't address any of those questions. If you're an expert on local currency, and embrace it as a solution, perhaps you could patiently explain how it would work? I think thats the type of thing Meteor Blades is talking about.

            •  Awesome Ray! (4+ / 0-)

              You managed to deny accusing your tiny handful of critics while implicitly accusing them in the same comment. It's like an Escher sketch.

      •  Target??? Quit standing in front of the gun. (0+ / 0-)

        The obnoxious behavior I see the most is epitomized in the Ted Rall diary.   We do have a bunch of tyrants who think they order people about because HIM/HER does like it .   Just what on planet earth makes them think they are entitled to do that?

        What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

        by dkmich on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:57:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Which (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stellaluna, kkkkate

          Ted Rall diary?

          I don't believe I participated in that one.

          No one is entitled to order people around because they don't like a person.

          Used to be no one was entitled to even obliquely posit that people who disagree with you were trolls or shills, or to posit CT about a horde of trolls and shills here at Dkos.

          That rule went out the window due to the NSA story, which apparently unleashed a great deal of paranoia that went beyond the NSA's activities to anyone who didn't share the same degree of angst over it.

          We became targets.  Yeah, I know, we are bullies who made it impossible for the dozens of diaries to be posted and for people to express themselves in 1,000s of comments.  

          No, wait a minute . . . .

          In those diaries I was accused of being a troll, shill, NSA "apologists", authoritarian, I can't even remember all of the rest of the "attacks" I withstood by simply stating my opinion.  

          Then I was followed by a few folks (including some rather well known 'friends' of Ray) who came into unrelated diaries and jeered at my comments, jeered even when I agreed with their viewpoints, generally violated the DBAD rule, etc.

          Bullies.  Ridiculous, childish bullies.  Meantime I'd been here 9 years with virtually total goodwill, well respected, etc.  

          And funny enough, several other long-time well-respected Kossacks took the same beating, the same accusations, for months.  They wanted to autoban us!  They posted pictures of trolls (that upset me so much that I issued my first hidden comment ever.)

          Many stopped posting for a while.  

          I think jeering and following is obnoxious.  I think bullying and high fiving is obnoxious.  I think drumming people out of diaries, off this site, with mean-spirited bullshit, or constantly implying or outright saying that anyone who disagrees is either nefarious or hapless - those are obnoxious.

          Acting like a victim after victimizing people is obnoxious.  Feeling aggrieved but being unable to empathize with others with similar feelings - obnoxious.  

          What on planet earth makes people think they are entitled to do that?

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