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View Diary: Growing concern about safety of homeschooled kids in North Carolina (121 comments)

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  •  Testing has become (2+ / 0-)
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    jedennis, betterdemsonly

    a pariah because it is boxed and delivered in one dimension.  It doesn't have to be that and is/can be a valuable tool to assess progress and weakness.  Denying the validity that testing can give is silly.  Kids need protected.  The only way to attempt to help them is regular visits by outsiders.  If you deny that or protest it you are part of the problem and deserve no respect.  Fight the bad and ineffective in a system but don't block help for kids who get none.

    Everyone! Arms akimbo! 68351

    by tobendaro on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 05:41:00 PM PST

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    •  testing (2+ / 0-)
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      FloridaSNMOM, paxpi

      can be a valuable tool.  Standardized testing as a measure of quality control to evaluate teaching and learning is fraught with too many flaws to be useful to monitor homeschooling.

       Learning is a highly individual process, and even moreso in homeschooling situations.  The most important things cannot be measured in any kind of way that can be applied broadly to groups of  homeschoolers.  

      Testing is not a necessary component of protection for children.  Children need protection from severe neglect and abuse and the existing laws are adequate to provide that protection--at least as well as they do for any child whether homeschooled or not.  Standardized testing results in schools are not part of the protection system for schooled children nor should they be.  

       

      •  I was reacting to two different (2+ / 0-)
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        Treetrunk, betterdemsonly

        points and should have clarified that.  Testing has nothing to do with protecting children of course.  However, if homeschoolers had to test or present in some way in order for their progress to be measured or at least be seen to be actually schooled, then signs of abuse can looked for in the children who are isolated.  Records of time spent in groups and activities should be part of what the state requires from homeschoolers.  Kids should not be isolated and society has a duty to see to it that children are not abused.  Compromise should happen so that every protection can be put in place.  I find it appalling that the right to school your children is seen as a militant right to keep children from protection.

        Everyone! Arms akimbo! 68351

        by tobendaro on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:32:00 PM PST

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        •  I would still (1+ / 0-)
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          paxpi

          have a problem with this kind of assessment.  For example, what if I chose to use a narrative-literature based approach K-4 with no formal math activities other than incidental games like playing Cribbage.  My child's math scores during this time period might look pretty deficient on the normal curve compared to children in a traditional school program.  I could be seen to be "neglecting" my child's education.  

          But guess what?  There has been research--done in traditional schools where this exact same approach was taken.  And it was found that while the narrative-focused group was "behind" in computation skills at grade 3, once they introduced formal math. this group zoomed far past the other kids in mathematics skills who had been in a traditional curriculum.  And particularly in ability to perform real math in functional activities and word problems.  

          I do not think that children in homeschooling states where there is no assessment or monitoring, such as my state of Kentucky where you simply are supposed to report that you are doing it, are "unprotected." They can choose to look at you to see if you have some kind of records to support "attendance" and that you address the required subject areas and keep some kind of undefined "scholarship reports". And in a case where someone notes a concern with a family the DPP does investigate.  

          Will every abused child be found, likely not.  But they aren't when they attend school either.  And my experience looking at reports of incidents has been that the kind of abusers who isolate children will do so whether or not they claim to homeschool and having more stringent reporting requirements would just drive them more underground and they would simply just fail to register at all.  So you might actually miss some of the kids that might be looked at if they family put the kids on the record here.  I have spoken with a DPP in one county about her practices when there was some local press about possible overreach and was satisfied with her approach and she detailed some situations where there were problems and how she handled these cases.  

          Bottom line is that hard cases make bad law.  

        •  and problem is, you get (1+ / 0-)
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          paxpi

          too much lack of understanding of the homeschooling process when you let professional educators monitor the situation.  

          I just had an extended and somewhat heated discussion with a close friend who generally shares my worldview on most things--but she thinks she understands homeschooling completely while I found her to have trouble understanding many of the things I know about it from my extensive reading and experience.   I found us having severe difficulty communicating about these very issues of situations of neglect and how that is even defined.  She is concerned about a great-niece of hers and the criteria she was using to criticize the situation were inappropriate.  For example, she felt that the time spent in formal learning environments with a homeschool group combined with individual activities with both a nanny and a tutor was inadequate, when it seemed to be well within the norms of the amount of time found in the homeschooling research literature.  (and I might add it is far more than the time given a schooled child who is put on homebound services for a medical condition).

            She also felt that because the child had ADHD and was behind in reading that she "had to have" a skilled professional such as herself (she was a K special ed teacher) and that the other situations the child was in would not be adequate.  And contradicted herself by saying both that "she had been doing fine at school" and ""she is behind in reading" at the same time (the child was only recently removed from school due to an unmanageable bullying situation).  So to me, she was obviously not "doing fine" in school, she struggles with reading still at age 11.  And there is story after story of kids who had ADHD and reading problems who, once removed from school, begin to approach learning in a different way--because the homeschooling milieu and environment is very different--and many of their former learning problems diminish or even disappear.  Despite the lack of a "trained professional" to work with the child.  It doesn't always happen and I heartily recommend using trained professionals (I am one--I work with kids with reading problems myself), and kids in school do need these professionals.  I am not diminishing the wonderful work they can do.  But I also know I work with kids who have problems who don't even come close to getting what they need at school, which is why I as a speech therapist end up working with them at my hospital clinic on reading and writing.

          And my friend is concerned that the situation is "precarious" and they might lose the nanny.  But this seems to be based on assumptions that if the current situation isn't permanent it should not be used now.  When in reality, kids frequently move back and forth between homeschooling and schools, military kids change schools all the time and may also move between schooling and homeschooling etc.  Just because they might have to work out different arrangements later doesn't mean that what they are doing right now is inappropriate.

            Now this particular situation is complicated by the fact that the mother has obvious problems functioning  that I won't go into, but those are issues that are present in this family no matter where the child is being educated, and bottom line is that no one knows how things will work out in the long run.

           But my take is that professional educators (and I am a speech-language pathologist myself, and have worked in the school system) have a hard time understanding homeschooling and judge it through a lens that fails to understand a lot of things about it.  

           

    •  You are conflating issues (0+ / 0-)

      Child protection and testing need not be combined.

      "There are two kinds of truth, small truth and great truth. You can recognize a small truth because its opposite is a falsehood. The opposite of a great truth is another truth." -- Niels Bohr

      by paxpi on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 08:08:17 PM PST

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