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View Diary: Updated "You can sell your desk. You don't need it." ~ Pope Francis (212 comments)

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  •  Particularly when a PILE of it (8+ / 0-)

    was accumulated over time through everyday not-rich people saving nickels and dimes so there could be something beautiful in their churches. Or so they could give something in memorial of another member.

    One of the really nasty things the RCC did to at least one church that spoke too loudly about a pedophile priest they'd had was dissolve the parish, combine them with another with an entirely different ethnic background down the street, and bundle off all the art they'd donated for generations.

    How many parish-church sized statues of Mary (just as an example) does the Vatican have in the art trove that weren't by famous name artists and are never going to go on display at the Vatican, while meanwhile how many poor parishes around the world have whatever statues they could carve themselves or save nickels and dimes for -- if anything -- when there's all that exact item and size of art given for the explicit purpose they need one for sitting in a Vatican art cache?

    Don't sell it! Put the really good stuff -- famous artists and less-famous but gorgeous -- out on display where anyone can go see it. Ask for a donation for upkeep, if that. Let the people of the world see the really awesomely good stuff they've been keeping locked up. And put the rest of it to the uses the artists and the donors thought it was going to be used for -- making the church the entire community shared on Sundays be pretty, the one time the poor there had in the week to see something that wasn't purely utilitarian and that they had a share - however small - in.

    Forget selling the pretty just because the Vatican is hogging it. The RCC needs to redistribute it.

    •  Much of that loot was stolen over hundreds (0+ / 0-)

      of years or "inherited" when they made priests and bishops swear chastity (their estates went to the church instead of to family heirs).

      Plus, much of the "Mary" statutes were actually pagan art of Isis stolen when the pagan shrines were looted.

      This church has over a thousand years of riches and loot taken from the poor and used to pay Michaelangelo for his art to decorate their palace.  No one seems to have a problem with this, most likely because people have not taken the time to read the history of Christianity and the RCC.

      •  This is an ignorant load of claptrap. (4+ / 0-)

        The "Mary statutes" (sic) were pagan art?  Dude, if you mean that images of Mary were drawn from a classical tradition of representation--as were the images of most early Christians since their cultural context was, you know, pagan in origin--then you might have the basis for an argument.

        Stop reading instant books and start reading real history.  The church has over a thousand years of riches taken from rich men who wanted to ingratiate themselves within the power structure of the papacy, and in doing so paid for a lot of art.  

        •  I wouldn't call Will Durant "instant books"... (0+ / 0-)

          Will's History of Civilization is about 13 volumes. Yes, the rich were very cozy with the church and gave them alot of money for the promises of guaranteed places in heaven. However, they did the same thing with the poor, and if you don't believe that, or don't believe that the riches of the church are steeped in graft and immoralities, then you might be the one reading "instant books".

          The early church raided and looted thousands of pagan shrines between 400 and 800 AD and took anything of value they could, including the art works, many of which are still stored in the catacombs under the vatican (which by the way was not built on the "rock of Peter", but on the site of a very large shrine to Mithra(s)).

           On Mary and Isis connection ... just one of many articles.

          Look up Jan Hus who was burned at the stake for protesting the church's indulgence scams..."Much like many of the other men who would be used in the Reformation, Hus' anger was often sparked by seeing the injustices perpetrated by the Church against the people around him. He saw clergy living extravagant and immoral lifestyles, while they bilked the poor commoners for more and more money"

          •  This Will Durant? (0+ / 0-)

            Perhaps you need to try reading him again, with an open mind instead of a made up one.

            Meanwhile, religion brings subtle and pervasive gifts to society and the state. Traditional rituals soothe the spirit and bind the generations. The parish church becomes a collective home, weaving individuals into a community. The cathedral rises as the product and pride of the unified municipality. Life is embellished with sacred art, and religious music pours its mollifying harmony into the soul and the group. To a moral code uncongenial to our nature and yet indispensable to civilization, religion offers supernatural sanctions and supports: an all-seeing deity, the threat of eternal punishment, the promise of eternal bliss, and commandments of no precariously human authority but of divine origin and imperative force.
            The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and -- after some hesitation -- the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical. The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike, to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end, a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death.

            “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

            by Catte Nappe on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 02:07:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Durant was an atheist who recognized (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              man's dependency on the concept of a god. I am talking about reading the historical facts he recorded about the actions of the RCC as an institutional player in history. So I don't know what you are trying to get to with this quote.

              •  Of course you don't (0+ / 0-)

                Try this as a central kernel of my point.

                The cathedral rises as the product and pride of the unified municipality. Life is embellished with sacred art, and religious music pours its mollifying harmony into the soul and the group.

                “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

                by Catte Nappe on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 02:57:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  OMG. Where to start. (1+ / 0-)
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            Cassandra Waites

            Please don't lecture to me about papal history and particularly St. Peter's.  You're basing your knowledge on one series of popular history written over 50 years ago.

            To my knowledge, there is no shrine dedicated to Mithras below St. Peter's, and I have been to the excavations under St. Peter's and seen the purported site of the original tomb.  The tomb was part of a necropolis located outside the Circus of Nero where Peter was probably martyred.  St. Peter's was constructed under the emperor Constantine as a means of legitimating the primary cult sites of early Christians, who until the Edict of Milan practiced in secret.  

            The pagan religion was outlawed in the Roman empire in 390, but despite this, there were specific laws prohibiting the plundering of Rome's pagan monuments.  Temples were not converted to churches (and not all of them were) until the early 7th century, long after the end of pagan practice in Rome.

            Your claim about early Christian or pagan works still located under the Vatican is laughable to say the least. The churches were themselves sacked and looted numerous times in the middle ages, beginning in 405 AD.  

          •  You appear to be confused (1+ / 0-)
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            Just Bob

            Perhaps you are thinking of the Basilica of San Clemente, on a site which did at one time have a Mithraeum.

            Explicitly Marian art goes back to the second century. It is possible to interpret Isis suckling Horus as Mary suckling Jesus, and this is in fact done today, but this would not have been done with traditional Egyptian statues of Isis bearing a throne headdress. This meme, based on Hellenized or Romanized statues of Isis without the throne headdress, does not seem to have appeared before the fifth century. So unless you have a link to an image and a historian saying so, I don't think so. The saying is, pics or it never happened.

            Jan Hus, though an important martyr, is irrelevant to this discussion.

            Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

            by Mokurai on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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