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View Diary: Pope Francis is going to be heard (189 comments)

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  •  no, you're right: I think I was inventing a brand- (0+ / 0-)

    new DailyKos accusation, which was being an anti-Pope-Francis troll.   Which seems a little excessive in the light of day.  

    On the other hand, I thought the thread had some fairly reasoned commentary, from quite a few people with quite good progressive credentials, on what one could possibly expect from a new head of the Catholic church 4 months into his tenure.   The anti-capitalist language will have effects on a wide range of listeners both inside and outside the church, some of whom (including many American catholics) already have more enlightened views on family planning. So I'll take the critique of capitalism.  But, of course, ymmv.

    •  The only reason that I have commented (0+ / 0-)

      frequently on diaries related to pope Francis is because there have been so many of them and they are all the same... ain't he a great guy!

      He talks against capitalism and yet the church has the vatican bank with operates just like any other captialism based bank... investments in corporations etc. etc.

      He talks about social justice and totally leaves women out of that loop.  There is nothing more key to social justice than family planning access.

      The church still discriminates against gays and lesbians and just because he says he won't judge them, the policies against them remain in place, including denial by catholic social services to gays wanting to adopt.

      So he's all hat and no cattle and I am distressed that a crowd like the one on Daily Kos is applying so little scrutiny and reasonable doubt to what I see as a giant PR game and nothing more.

      •  I think we're talking past each other. I suspect (0+ / 0-)

        I share the entirety of your critique of the institutional catholic church (which I certainly have no personal investment in), and I suspect that goes for most DK commentors too.   So one important question is: what could one possibly expect from a new person, who was ABLE to get himself elected pope, within the first 4 months of his tenure.  Do you think he could have abolished the Vatican Bank, in this timespan?  The financial holdings and dealings of the Catholic church are massive, sprawling, global; changing them will take time even if there is a will to do so.  AS for the policies on homosexuality and on non-ordination of women (which shuts them entirely out of power), these are core elements of Catholic doctrine that no pope could change unilaterally--that would have to be accomplished through a "Vactican III" council which was much more radical in its agenda than Vatican II  was.  Has he called for such a  council yet?  No.  IF we don't see some kinds of institutional moves like this within, say, a year, then I might be tempted to join you in "all hat, no cattle."

        Except even that doesn't fully address the situation.  A new pope is not like a new CEO; (a) because he's far more limited in the scope of orders he can issue, but also (b) because SO much of his influence is exercised by the pulpit, by his pronouncements themselves, esp when they take the 'official' form this latest thing did that created all the latest fuss.   Francis cannot change core catholic doctrine by himself but he can drastically re-emphasize certain aspects at the expense of others.    And him simply saying these things has already had material effects: why do you think all the RW nutjobs are freaking out about him?  I think there's plenty of scrutiny of Francis on DK, but it's educated scrutiny and I'm hoping there's room for some education in your case too.    

        •  Read Fred Clarkson's diary on this pope. (0+ / 0-)

          The RR nuts who are most vocal about him are the stupid ones with the big mouths. Most RR conservatives have already figured out that he is just using their new GOP strategy of making their institution APPEAR to have changed when the basic policies/theology are not going to change one single bit.   I have seen little educated scrutiny offered by most of the diaries and a vast majority of commenters on this topic on Kos.

          The fact that he hasn't had "time" to make changes is all the more reason to hold his feet to the fire and stop fawning all over his every pronouncement.

          •  What's Clarkson's username? I don't find anything (0+ / 0-)

            under his actual name, but I'd be happy to look at his diary with a little more pointer (or a link).  I do agree that there has been some "fawning"---DK is a big place now with its share of unreflective commentary--but I would hardly extend that to Triple-B (who wrote this diary).  I think he's pretty well established himself as both progressive and thoughtful.  Again, maybe you disagree.

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