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View Diary: Criminally Insane Man arrested with 36 guns (331 comments)

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  •  Uh. Yes it would. If a gun seller did a background (13+ / 0-)

    check on him, and saw that he was not allowed to buy guns, then the seller would not be allowed to sell him the guns.

    How many transactions with legitimate business people did he have before he was caught?

    He abused the enormous loophole in the system. This is clear proof that the loophole needs to be closed.

    I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

    by mungley on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 08:13:27 AM PST

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    •  More to the point, the check would have flagged (13+ / 0-)

      that he was trying to buy guns when disqualified, giving probable cause for further investigation.

      •  Right. (9+ / 0-)

        Good point.

        I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

        by mungley on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 08:49:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Clarify? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nickrud, LilithGardener, KVoimakas

        If either of you means "licensed gun dealers" when you say "legitimate business people", then he should have been flagged by existing background check laws. But we have let over 100,000 indicted or convicted felons or people with outstanding warrants fail background checks without doing a damn thing.

        That is, 100,000 people have walked into a gun store, fail the federal check due to being a felon, and no one at the federal end bothers to call the local police and tell them that guy (whose verified name and address they just collected) tried to illegally purchase a gun.

        Wouldn't it be, you know, sensible to get that one taken care first?

        Or maybe you prefer adding a new background check that will be exactly as well-enforced as the one we have now (after 5 years of a democratic attorney general and 5 years of Obama-supported directors of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, I might add).

        •  For once you make a valid point (5+ / 0-)

          I agree people who try to buy guns and fail a background check should be subject to scrutiny. Problem is that only an effing idiot would try to buy a gun from a licensed dealer if he knew he was banned.

          So I will meet you half way, I will push for follow up checks, if you push for universal background checks.

          •  Another halfway measure is that states (3+ / 0-)

            should require all gun dealers to be licensed businesses. Either licensed as FFLs, or licensed by the state, and subject to similar record keeping requirements.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 10:26:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Low-hanging fruit (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas

            47% of gun store background checks are failed by people felony indictments or convictions, and 19% are failed by actual fugitives. At least that's the data I found when researching background check effectiveness.

            So I'll happily agree with the "effing idiots" part. And since a significant percentage of gun violence is done by people who are already criminals of some sort, not catching them at that point means they are free to acquire guns from some other channel, whether private sale or illegal dealer (like our friend the diary is about).

            According to a Frontline report on illegal guns, the three biggest ways people illegally acquire guns are 1) straw purchases, 2) unlicensed gun dealers, and 3) legal, licensed dealers who make knowingly illegal sales. That would make unchecked private individual sales at least number 4 on the list. And note that UBC's would not do anything about the top 3, but better enforcement of existing laws could.

            So, in addition to enforcing existing laws against the effing idiots, how much better results would you get if you put the same effort to any of items 1 through 3 as you do to UBC's? And you would probably get more support from gun owners (at least the non-criminal ones).

            I will push for follow up checks, if you push for universal background checks.
            I'll push for better enforcement of existing laws even without universal background checks...

            I'm just not keen on this subject or any subject about "throwing laws at the problem and seeing what sticks".

        •  You have a point (3+ / 0-)

          But, the presumption is that our laws are enforced. I think the problem is that our gun culture doesn't allow for those laws to be taken seriously.

        •  That requires funding - and we need to demand (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mungley, Glen The Plumber

          Congress appropriate funds for doing exactly that.

          But you're skirting the bigger issue, IMO. Many states do not require gun dealers to be licensed. Only if a gun dealer voluntarily becomes a Federally licensed gun dealer are they subject to FFL licensing standards.

          I'm sure you know that already, and I agree with you basic point that we DO need more resources AND better enforcement of existing law.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 10:25:19 AM PST

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          •  It's not rocket science exactly. (3+ / 0-)

            If you buy or sell more than x guns per year/month you are a defacto dealer.

            How ia it possible that  a guy can set up a table at a gun show with 100 guns or more and claim not to be a dealer?

            •  Dealer is not defined in the law - believe it or (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              peterfallow

              not.

              This story is THE poster child for why we need two things:
              a) universal background checks,
              b) all gun dealers must be licensed, either at the Federal level, or at the state level.

              There also needs to be a transfer mechanism as part of estate law that allows a legal gun owner to formally disburse an asset before death, such that families can transfer ownership of a family heirloom to another family member. I think I would even vote for public funding of those background checks, say 1 free background check/transfer per gun in any 10 year window.

              E.g. Grandpa can formally transfer the great-grandfather's gun to his grandaughter who may be only 10 or 12 years old, as long as the parents are legally able to own guns, and have been trained/licensed in safe storage/lawful use, etc.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 11:06:00 AM PST

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              •  Missed a point (0+ / 0-)
                b) all gun dealers must be licensed, either at the Federal level, or at the state level.
                You need to define "dealer" first. As an example of what is currently enforceable, a 2009 ATF press release mentions the "unlicensed dealer" conviction of someone who sold 400 guns over 15 years (1 per 2 weeks).
                •  IMO, that will be left up to the states (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  peterfallow, Glen The Plumber

                  the same way that the specifics of voter registration is left up to the state, for example.

                  You know as well as I do, that Federally licensed dealers are already defined. An FFL is anyone licensed to sell just one gun. Even if they never sell any guns.

                  The word "private sales" is code for a "Don't ask/Don't tell" honor policy that facilitates transfer of guns from legal owners into the gray market where they can be easily transferred into the illegal gun market. Guns are better than money in some of those channels.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 11:55:52 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Au contraire (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Neo Control

                    From the ATF site:

                    Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

                    A: A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

                    It's pretty clear that the ATF is aware that individuals sell an occasional gun to another individual and the ATF has gone as far as to describe the exact conditions under which an "unlicensed person" can legally sell a firearm.
                    •  Nothing in your comment contradicts my prior (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      peterfallow, Glen The Plumber

                      comment.

                      Your nonsequitor about the private sales by unlicensed dealers emphasizes that the private sales exemption is a loophole so big that the French farming industry could drive all their tractors/trucks through it without even forming single file. They could drive side-by-side without even brushing the edges, the loophole is that huge.

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 12:39:47 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wowsa (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Kasoru

                        I don't even need to be in this argument. LilithGardener says:

                        Dealer is not defined in the law - believe it or not
                        LilithGardener replies:
                        You know as well as I do, that Federally licensed dealers are already defined.
                        LilithGardener adds some commentary about LilithGardener:
                        Nothing in your comment contradicts my prior comment
                        LilithGardener is quite capable of rebutting everything LilithGardener says without my help, and can even provide snide commentary about LilithGardener.

                        My work here is done.

                        •  Adjectives define subsets (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Glen The Plumber

                          they define a subset.

                          Federally licensed dealers

                          is a subset of

                          Dealers

                          I think I learned adjectives and subsets in First or Second grade, didn't you?

                          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                          by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 02:10:11 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

        •  Ok. People who sell at gun shows are not (0+ / 0-)

          legitimate business people.
          Sorry for the confusion.
          Close the loopholes.

          I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

          by mungley on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 11:09:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Only if Florida reports those adjudications to the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mungley

        NCIS.

        I don't know whether Florida law is one of those states that don't report.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 10:21:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  exactly (7+ / 0-)

      and note that he got 5 recs from the RKBA group for that bogus claim:

      I am hesitant to say that any sort of background check law would have had much effect on him.
      Guys, why would you rec a patently false claim like that?
    •  Should illegal drug dealers do (0+ / 0-)

      background checks before they sell meth?  It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that legal restrictions will affect black market transactions that are already proceeding in violation of existing legal restrictions.

      People who are already violating one law are unlikely to change their behavior when another law is passed.

      Politics means controlling the balance of economic and institutional power. Everything else is naming post offices.

      by happymisanthropy on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 09:47:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is a loophole in the current law. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Glen The Plumber, Miggles

        By likening gun show and private sales to illegal drug sales, you demonstrate that the system is flawed.

        It is the Gray market that is the issue here.

        I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

        by mungley on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 11:06:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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