Skip to main content

View Diary: On Raising My Children To Be Free -- Free To Leave The U.S.A. (275 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  My diary is more strident than I live daily (39+ / 0-)

    I should note that. But I do take the trends in our nation personally and find them more than disturbing.

    I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

    by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 10:45:04 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I find your diary more than disturbing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lujane, Aquarius40

      Why not just let the kids grow up normally?  You steer them away from organised religion? ok, how about let them make their own decisions?  

      You say many countries are less intrusive, more free, more open to abortion etc, but you offer not a one.  Also, you seem to have no clue how immigration works.  Good luck to an American who wants to emigrate to an EU country if they don't have absurdly rare skills or a ton of money.  You don't just say, starting tomorrow I am Norwegian.  Maybe if you are from the third world, but no chance if you are from America.  

      I swear, I admit I am to the right of many here, that is not a hard thing to do, since probably 90 percent of the country can say that.  And I get on with many people here and many diaries are fun because they are not so angry.  But things like this make me feel I should spend more time on a hobby, like learning to paint or something.  

      •  Even the ultra conservative Heritage (26+ / 0-)

        Foundation admits that its own long-running study shows the U.S. declining in terms of economic freedom. We are now 12th according to them.

        Press freedom? We are a dismal 46th in the world.

        How about overall? This:

        In the World Economic Forum’s most recent Global Competitiveness Report, the U.S. doesn’t make it into the top 20 on nearly any measure, and on eight it doesn’t even make it into the top 50, ranking 59th, for example, with respect to government officials not showing favoritism, a measure as to which seven Asian countries scored higher than the U.S.
        How many more quality links would you like?

        Indeed I did not link to much because it was a rant, but also because the criticisms I made are largely established truths.

        I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

        by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 05:02:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with economic freedom (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aquarius40

          but are we all to move to Hong Kong?  I just checked the press freedom index on wikipedia and the USA is nowhere near 46th.  Ok, Jamaica is ahead of us, but what are we to do with that information?  And who decides this?  I think the press reports what they want to report and takes the side they want to take.

          In the end, you have to admit to yourself that you are refuting the land that millions around the world have dreamed of and risked everything to become a part of.

          Also, this site is about electing progressive Democrats.  If diaries like this, that are so welcomed here, got out, would they help Democrats or hurt them?

          TC

          •  There's not a huge migration (12+ / 0-)

            from modern countries to here.

            The migration comes from people and places who are having a really hard time.

            Most immigrants from those countries, like my husband from Australia, do it due to wanting to be with their loved one (and I had a big business here).

            You can blah, bah about "the land that millions around the world have dreamed of"; I had 45 ancestors who came here from Europe in the 17th Century.  

            But things change.

            And why is the US the only country I have been to that sees living overseas for a while as a betrayal?

            •  that's a new one to me (0+ / 0-)

              you said: "And why is the US the only country I have been to that sees living overseas for a while as a betrayal?"

              I think learning other languages, appreciating other cultures, and living abroad are gifts, mainly to those who are pretty well off.  We should encourage such endeavors.  

              I am proud that I have worn out a few passports and have lived abroad.  Yet I have never felt i needed to escape the USA for a better chance at life.  I might see countries that appreciate things I appreciate more than the average American, but they are not havens, hell, even many of their own people could give a damn about their own history, heritage, or cuisine.  

              The thing about life is it what you make of it.  You can't find a better place if your problem is yourself.  jmho

              TC

              •  Question: (12+ / 0-)

                You say this:

                I think learning other languages, appreciating other cultures, and living abroad are gifts, mainly to those who are pretty well off.  
                ...followed by this:
                I am proud that I have worn out a few passports and have lived abroad.
                So then, should I deduce that you are well off? Were you born into it? If so, congratulations, but perhaps that colors your perspective, due to the ease with which you are able to live. I don't doubt you might have earned it from your own merit and effort, by the way.

                I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

                by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:21:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Where? (0+ / 0-)

                  What destinations do you propose that will offer not "well-off" Americans remunerative positions and ease of immigration?

                  Why would they?  What is in their national self-interest to dos?  Most nations outside of Europe are not progressive and liberal.

                  Many if not most, have highly conservative religious populations to boot.

                  Cheers.

            •  I don't see that at all (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TurkeyCreek, kaliope, cybrestrike
              And why is the US the only country I have been to that sees living overseas for a while as a betrayal?
              Who does that?  I see Americans traveling and living overseas---this site has plenty of them. Who sees living overseas as betrayal? Thats bizarre

              Happy just to be alive

              by exlrrp on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:41:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is the land of the bizarre (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gffish, YucatanMan, cybrestrike
                Who sees living overseas as betrayal? Thats bizarre
                Ted Cruz who said he was going to denounce his Canadian citizen (Don't know if he's done it yet.).

                Michele Bachmann who withdrew her Swiss citizenship because some conservatives questioned her dual citizenship.

                Bizarre enough?

                A million Arcosantis.

                by Villabolo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:09:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  not really they are politicians (0+ / 0-)

                  they do what they think is expedient to their careers.  Has any president held dual nationality?  That is a serious question btw.  

                  •  Still, Republicans tend to despise other nations (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gffish, YucatanMan

                    Michele Bachmann's dual citizenship drew an immense backlash from conservatives. That indicates that many "grassroots" Republicans have a negative opinion of dual citizenship.

                    Since dual citizenship is very rare I think it is unlikely that any President faced the issue of renouncing his other country's citizenship.

                    A million Arcosantis.

                    by Villabolo on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:47:14 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  what about George Washington, etc? (0+ / 0-)

                    They were born as citizens of other countries like England.

                    I think the English still thought of the U.S. as English soil full of English citizens even up until the War of 1812 or so.  

                    •  That triggered that war (0+ / 0-)

                      "I think the English still thought of the U.S. as English soil full of English citizens even up until the War of 1812 or so."

                      Royal Navy pressing American sailors on those shaky legalities, plus some of their own probably.

                  •  Fall of the Roman Empire comparison (7+ / 0-)

                    Much of this diary is familiar to anyone who has read the book, Are We Rome?  by Cullen Murphy.  From Roman history it is clear that the Roman Empire "fell" over hundreds of years and many generations.  The intelligent people, and the ones with resources, moved away to various other more attractive Mediterranean areas.  

                    A parent back then could little control the next generation, let alone the next 100 years.  So the best ones educated the children for an uncertain future, probably including a variety of languages.  

                    One of those Romans came up with the sentence, "And this too shall pass away."  For thirty years as a history teacher, I predicted that someday American Democracy would be lost.  But it is our job, during our lifetimes, to maintain our Constitution as long as we could.  And I kept William O. Douglas's quote ever before the class: "As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."

                       

                    I'm from Johnson City.

                    by Al Fondy on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 07:31:21 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Lincoln (0+ / 0-)

                    According to Wikipedia, Abraham Lincoln was honorary citizen of San Marino, of all places.

                    There may be others; I wouldn't know. Just read this incidentally.

                    Freedom is not just a word. 'Freedom' is a noun.

                    by intruder from Old Europe on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 09:18:05 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Press freedom drops are disturbing. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          YucatanMan, wintergreen8694


          If the Heritage Foundation takes us down to 12th place in "economic freedom", then Obama deserves a third term.  The Heritage Foundation is a Wall Street-friendly thinktank.

          The drop to 46th in press freedom is truly disturbing...a bit worse that El Salvador and a bit better than Serbia.  

          "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

          by Yamaneko2 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:03:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Obama's war on whistleblowers could have (8+ / 0-)

            a large hand in that.  His administration has prosecuted more and more harshly than all the other presidents combined.

            And then there's NSA.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:47:54 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I get the feeling... (0+ / 0-)

                ...that it's less about "whistleblowers" and more about what they perceive as "political correctness".

                  They're unhappy that it's become far less acceptable in the media to be overtly racist and homophobic.

              "Le ciel est bleu, l'enfer est rouge."

              by Buzzer on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:13:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I read an analysis and yes, it had much to do (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tb mare, 420 forever, corvo, YucatanMan

                with Obama's attack on whistleblowers, on the messages from his administration that reporters are "complicit" and language like that.

                I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

                by pajoly on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 05:42:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Anecdote from the Cold War (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            The escort of a Russian(Soviet) press delegation touring the US, told the following story:

            During the usual Q&A at the end of the tour one Russian reporter asked him: How do you do it?

            Do what?

            Have your entire news media consistently follow the same, political talking points, was the reply. In the USSR even with reprisals and threats the Kremlin can't extract such consistent conformity from the soviet media

      •  I should have added this quote too (17+ / 0-)
        For years, the International Finance Corporation has compiled data on the difficulty of conducting business in different countries. Since 2006 most countries have significantly reduced these difficulties. In only 21 countries has the difficulty of doing business gotten worse.  The US shows the sixth-greatest decline in ease—just behind Burundi, Congo-Brazzaville and Yemen.
        Read that list of three countries whose company we keep on this metric.

        ...and then WHAM, here is the money quote on just how shitty things have become here:

        The World Justice Project’s Rule of Law Index for 2012–2013 ranks the U.S. 26th out of 97 countries on effectiveness of the criminal justice system, 25th on fundamental rights, and 22nd on access to civil justice.
        We're number one, right? Not in anything about which we can be proud.

        I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

        by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 05:06:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Most European countries (5+ / 0-)

        are far more open to short-term worker's permits than here.

        Which gives you exposure to a country.

        And if you get accepted by any European nation or Commonwealth country, you get accepted by all.

        •  good idea for college students (0+ / 0-)

          try it as an average Joe, and i mean an average Joe with a college degree and has been told by all his friends and family he is special.  I think you are mistaken if you think EU countries offer short term workers permits to Americans in a casual way.  I know quite a bit about the subject, and will gladly give you advice if you are interested.

          I don't think the diary is about short term workers permits or as another said "living abroad for a while".  I think the author would back me up on this.

          •  I don't pretend it is easy to get work permission (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan, cybrestrike, DuzT, 420 forever

            I have many friends from many places and know barriers can be high. Unless of course you are wealthy -- that'll swing the doors wide for you anywhere. I'm a realist, not an idealist.

            I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

            by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:49:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Guide them to the right job (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snazzzybird, 420 forever, Paragryne

              When they look forward to what they want to work in when they have gone through their education, point them towards areas where the skills are readily transferable. A doctor or nurse would find a job abroad far more easily than a lawyer (unless with specialism in international law). Being bilingual could lead them into translation work or in an office dealing with trade with the other nation where knowing the language and traditions would give the company an advantage.  Just a few examples but I hope the idea helps.

              "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

              by Lib Dem FoP on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 06:17:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Define "normal" (11+ / 0-)

        My kids are normal, except maybe their giftedness (required to test in the top 1% to qualify for the immersion program). One is learning piano, another violin, one the ukulele. One plays softball, two tennis, the boy baseball. My wife coaches a neighborhood softball team. We eat pizza, but also quality foods. We have Bob Evans breakfasts sometimes, or just oatmeal or decent cereal. We ride our bikes together or we take our two dogs to the dog beach. I have both a Prius and and used Expedition (6 person family), go figure. Our neighbors adore our kids, and are fond of us.

        We are not special, nor are we weird, unless you consider not going to church weird.

        I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

        by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:17:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  not for me to define normal (0+ / 0-)

          personally I would want my dad to tell me how to live a good life and help people, not offer what you have here.  Again everyone has different experiences.  My replies have been to the diary you offered, nothing more.  Good luck

          TC

          •  I just don't get how you suppose (15+ / 0-)

            I teach them otherwise. You'd be hard-pressed to find kinder and more helpful children than my own. The entire purpose goal of our raising them is to teach them to have the best life they can build, and not one with artificial boundaries thrust upon them, including that of their native citizenship.

            I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

            by pajoly on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 06:52:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is just how I took the diary (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pajoly, wintergreen8694

              I would never presume to judge your parenting, far from it.  It seems you are very conscientious and are a caring parent.   I would never say you are raising your kids wrong,  mainly because I have no info on the subject and also because I don't have the answers.

              My different opinion was based solely on your diary and YOUR opinion of this nation, not how you raise your kids.  If I had to critique anything, I would just say let them make their own decisions on religion and this nation.   Yet, certainly a father has a right to teach his kids what he believes.

              Look, I will be honest here.  My view is that people should find their own happiness in this life.  If they find it in another country, then go for it.  I have lived abroad and traveled abroad a lot, those were some of my happiest times.  But don't forget that many traveled here out of a believed need, and they feel blessed for doing so.  We all have to follow our OWN path.  

              Also, and always, my respect for your service  to this country.

              TC

      •  Turkey Creek (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YucatanMan, Lonely Texan, Paragryne, corvo

        pajoly is free to raise his kids the way he wants to without your ok.
        You have no idea what he knows about emigrating.
        I find your comment disturbing.
        You are to the right of many here?  I find that disturbing too.
        Have fun learning to paint  

        Bigotry knows no race or color. It's interesting, though, that it often seems to proliferate in churches.

        by snoopydawg on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 08:36:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You write like you don't know much about the (8+ / 0-)

        rest of the democracies of the world.

        Wrap yourself in the flag and sing hallelujah, but the constantly repeated refrain of "USA, USA, #1, #1" is barely true about any single thing any more, except mass killings and military spending.

        Education, health care, whatever you want to pick, let's say press freedom and independence, effective democracy, economic inequality, on and on -- we're not #1 and we are falling.

        It's not an accident. There are forces at work -- no, it is not a conspiracy, it is the natural fallout of a certain world view -- which are driving the nation into 3rd world status, inequality of wealth among them.  Blind belief in "free market" and "zero regulation" are taking apart this nation much faster than anyone ever would have thought.

        Maybe you should take up painting.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Sat Mar 08, 2014 at 12:45:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  So, learning languages (7+ / 0-)

        Traveling, being encouraged to write their own scripts and talking honestly about political events and trends is not growing up normal? I think you just proved the diarist's point.

      •  You have to admit that educating your kids to be (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MNGlasnant, Paragryne, corvo, Lonely Texan

        multilingual is the most responsible way to raise them. That and providing them with the means to learn "absurdly rare skills."
           

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site