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  •  I don't care how big your business is. (0+ / 0-)

    You're petite bourgeoisie.  Your interests are not the same as the interests of those who own no significant capital and who must shop their labor to those who do.

    Your interests are those of the boss class.  

    That's simply a matter of recognizing reality, not "warping it".  In America, the entire concept of class consciousness has been destroyed by this bizarre invention 'The middle class'.

    Vaunted "small businesses", which typically pay less for the same work and offer few (if any) benefits compared to large industrial employers are still businesses owned by capitalists.  

    Class is not defined by income, but by capital relationships.

    No working class in history ever improved their situation by being confused about class relationships, or thinking that anyone could ever be both a boss and an ally to the proletariat.

    Is it "Gordon Gecko Democrat" week here at Dailykos?

    by JesseCW on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 11:50:35 PM PDT

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    •  We are not in 18th century France as your... (0+ / 0-)

      language implies, though the more I read your posts the more i'm willing to accept you believe you are.

      I'm not sure you even understand what your point is, you seem to be against the middle class and wealth and capitalism and allies. So is everyone equal and poor actually your conclusion or are you just so confused thats only where logic leads but you don't let things like logic get in the way.

      Capital relationships may define class but I would need someone to define capital relationships first to be able to tell.

      Okay i'm done and poking is probably in poor taste, but anyone who uses "petite bourgeoisie"when speaking English is asking for some ridicule. Though given i'm thinking you really have mental issues I'm going to regret this in hindsight.

      When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

      by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 12:09:45 AM PDT

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      •  You're now down to word salad. (0+ / 0-)

        I strongly suggest Econ 101 at your local community college.

        Though given i'm thinking you really have mental issues I'm going to regret this in hindsight.
        See my sig.

        Is it "Gordon Gecko Democrat" week here at Dailykos?

        by JesseCW on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 12:32:32 AM PDT

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      •  Suggesting someone has "mental issues" (0+ / 0-)

        is against the rules of this site and could get you banned if habitual. I would have Hr'd this comment for that reason were I not already involved in a discussion with you.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 01:31:12 PM PDT

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        •  Thats why I ended the convo... (0+ / 0-)

          We are a reality based community as long as reality fits predefined conditions.

          Unstable or not his reasoning is beyond logic or bother.

          What would you call it?

          When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

          by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 01:45:26 PM PDT

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          •  What I would call it is irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

            What is relevant is that you apparently knew what you were doing was a violation of site rules and you did it anyway.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:16:13 PM PDT

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            •  Funny thing rules if you follow them all... (0+ / 0-)

              all the time you stop thinking beyond them.

              I follow the rules 99.99%+ but ill break them on the rarest occasion when I feel its appropriate. On that note I will also accept without pity or remorse any consequences.

              HR if you feel its what should be done, but that won't make think different, recant my statement nor further or prevent me breaking the rules in the future.

              I am an ally in his cause, but his need to label me as an 'other' instantly puts me against him via framing. We are on the same side of the same cause but hes looking for ways to exclude allies.

              I think thats crazy....

              When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

              by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:29:00 PM PDT

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              •  Obviously I won't HR you, since that too is (0+ / 0-)

                against site rules, which I suspect you already know.

                I prefer to not indulge in hypocritical posturing.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:39:39 PM PDT

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                •  Please explain my hypocrisy because in this... (0+ / 0-)

                  case I am honestly completely blind to it and though I can't promise you I will, I am completely open to admitting where I am wrong should you make your point.

                  (As far as you HRing and if its allowed or not, I also believe you are welcome to break the rules where you might see fit. In this regard I assure I am not a hypocrite)

                  When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                  by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:48:28 PM PDT

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                  •  Oh come off it (0+ / 0-)

                    Citing your violation of the rules and then violating them myself would be the definition of hypocrisy.

                    Do you really not see that?

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 03:01:49 PM PDT

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                    •  I see rules differently than you... (0+ / 0-)

                      Rules are not concrete walls they are imposed boundaries that may or may not be broken. If a rule is broken or not the rule still exists but to ALWAYS follows the rules is as bad as NEVER doing so.

                      I believe in free will, but only with responsibility for accepting what may become of it. The best example is where the three seniors broken into the secure federal facility and the older lady got 3 years. The is much uproar about how unfair that is but when she issued a statement she said she knew full well she was going to get time on it and will happily server her 3 years. She can break the rules any time she wants in my book because when she does she will be fully aware she is doing it and why,  and accept the result without pity or remorse.

                      The other problem are those who break the rules because they do not respect the boundary exists at all thus not just breaking the rule but destroying it as it applies to them. When I broke the rule I knew I was doing it and totally expected I might get a donut or two, but the rule still exists for me as a boundary that I will only cross because I see a reason for it. People who break rules because they don't acknowledge the boundary exists at all are a big problem in our society and are the ones that when they get caught cry how unfair the consequences are.

                      Lastly ALWAYS following the rules also destroys the value of the boundary just like in Christianity where they say God gave you free will, but if you don't do what he says you are doomed to eternal damnation. That is not free will. If the rules are never crossed they are no longer boundaries, but barriers. A society constrained by barriers is as unfree as it gets.

                      So if you feel my remark deserves a HR you are very welcome to do so even if you think in doing so would also break the rules. There is no sound logic to support me not being able to run a red light in order to stop a bank robber, there is no hypocrisy if you feel my violation has a far more negative effect than yours.

                      Sorry for the dissertation, but once I realized you meant you were potentially the hypocrite I thought you might find my view interesting.

                      When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                      by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 03:27:02 PM PDT

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                      •  This is really not that complicated (0+ / 0-)

                        When you join DKos, it is expected that you will abide by the rules of the site. You are not compelled to post here but if you do, you are obliged to abide by those rules. If you find them too onerous, the honest course is to post elsewhere.

                        I find the comparison of civil disobedience with violating rules in order to indulge in personal insult both absurd and insulting to those whose example you have appropriated.

                        Likewise the notion that   "ALWAYS following the rules also destroys the value of the boundary..." is an abstract sophistry. The value of a boundary lies in the prevention of the negative consequences that accrue from violating it. For example: the laws against murder aren't validated by the act of murder. They are validated by the preservation of life.

                        BTW, running a red light in order to stop a bank robbery isn't justifiable, since it endangers the lives of others. That's why police, who are the only ones empowered to do such things, are equipped sirens and flashing lights. It's also why people who engage in such actions often end up facing charges themselves.

                        Nothing human is alien to me.

                        by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 04:28:42 PM PDT

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                        •  You are welcome to your opinion, I fully respect.. (0+ / 0-)

                          it and see where you are coming from. You prefer to see the rules as barriers, things not to be broken. I am not sure which of us is right so I am perfectly willing to give your view equal value. I will not begrudge you your perspective.

                          I doubt you could say the same to me though.

                          When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                          by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 04:40:11 PM PDT

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                          •  You seem to have a propensity for imagining you (0+ / 0-)

                            know what I think. I do wish you had an equal propensity for addressing the points I actually raised.

                            Of course if, as you say, you're really not sure of your view, I can understand and respect your hesitation.

                            Certainly I respect your right to disagree but this:

                            You prefer to see the rules as barriers, things not to be broken.
                            is not at all what I said, nor is it my opinion. It is, at best, a projection of your own thinking.

                             

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:17:44 PM PDT

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                          •  I am just saying we are discussing a topic.. (0+ / 0-)

                            of philosophy which has no right answer on the meta level it can only be true or not for an individual. As such all well reasoned consistent views are equally right, though each individual will have what is right for them.

                            So I am not unsure of my view in that I am very comfortable with it, but I have no will to try and force it upon others. Its very easy for people to get stuck in a binary world view where they are right and someone else is wrong. In questions of philosophy there is no such truth so I prefer to tread very lightly with no expectations or judgement on how others view the same questions.

                            I don't 'know' what you think but the purpose of discussion is to turn thoughts into words so they can be conveyed to others, if you feel that i'm not understanding you its possible its my comprehension, its also possible you are not making yourself clear enough.

                            I must admit I don't understand what you think I am not addressing?

                            When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                            by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:29:57 PM PDT

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                          •  Weird I replied but it got lost somehow lol (0+ / 0-)

                            Anyway, you misunderstand I am not unsure of my view its just that we are discussing a question of philosophy which as I see it has no correct answer (Given some semblance reasoning and consistency) at the meta level it can only be true or false for an individual.

                            Too often people reduce things to binary with one thing right and another wrong, oddly enough they always end up with themselves right and others wrong. I have no such issue we are both right and I have no will to push my view on you which is why I backed off and said what I said.

                            I must admit I did think it very likely you would go binary on me telling me how I was wrong, but I do not 'know' what you think. That is the point of discussion to turn thoughts into words so they can be conveyed to others. If you feel I am not understanding you it could be my comprehension, it could also be you are not making yourself clear.

                            Honestly I do not understand what you think I am not addressing?

                            When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                            by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:46:12 PM PDT

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                          •  Okay it just appeared sorry for double post. nt (0+ / 0-)

                            When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                            by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:46:49 PM PDT

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                          •  This explains a great deal (0+ / 0-)

                            We've been talking at cross purposes. While you may have been talking philosophy, I've been talking politics. That is, after all, the purpose of this site.

                            My own interest in Philosophy waned precipitously with exposure to the Christian apologists. As someone once said of the Metaphysician "He is a blind man in a dark room searching for a black hat that isn't there."  

                            That said I don't see how you reconcile this

                            I am not sure which of us is right so I am perfectly willing to give your view equal value. I will not begrudge you your perspective.
                            with this
                            Anyway, you misunderstand I am not unsure of my view its just that we are discussing a question of philosophy which as I see it has no correct answer (Given some semblance reasoning and consistency) at the meta level it can only be true or false for an individual.
                            Here's the rub. I've not been speaking at the meta level. My responses have all referenced externals. The validity of abstract theorems lays not in their internal consistency or "elegance" but in testing them against material realities.

                            As for points left unanswered, I can only suggest that you re-read my comments from the beginning, putting aside any assumptions you may have made. In particular my reply that you never responded to at all.

                            I'll leave you one other thought, one that you may or may not be familiar with.

                            "...philosophers have only
                            interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it."

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 06:56:55 PM PDT

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                          •  I don't know why you choose to be so cryptic, (0+ / 0-)

                            about what I haven't addressed. You say we are discussing politics, where I don't see anything political mentioned. This started with you telling how you could HR me because I broke a rule and me saying yeah I know, I will do that on occasion but feel free to HR.Which then turned into this philosophical conversation.

                            The two different quotes you compare reconcile very easy where the first was in a  context where I was backing off not wanting to in any way make you feel I was expecting you to see things my way, the second is me clarifying for you why I phrased it that way, and this is me explaining the two which seems overly pedantic, but you asked.

                            Interesting about your final quote because I am having another private conversation right now exactly on how to change the world (Well America, but close enough). So the fact I am waxing philosophical with you has little bearing on what else I do, and changing the world is very high on my priority list.

                            I must admit you come off as someone with very rigid views and a passive tone of superiority. Where I am trying to explain myself as clear as possible you seem to be going out of your way to be abstract and in doing so may have confuse yourself into thinking there is politics anywhere in this thread chain.

                            So lets go back to the top...

                            If you were to go through all 1000+ of my posts would not find any habit of insulting people. So why did I imply I think hes crazy? Because I really think he is and was speaking the truth. Hes living Viva La Resistance where he is the hero of proletariat and I play a minor villain "petite bourgeoisie". I wasn't just suggesting hes crazy, read what he wrote its not that hard to see his vision is cloudy.

                            So when I break the rules its not to insult people its to speak truth even though the rules might say I shouldn't. The other place you will see me break the rules is in the partisan Democrat part of it, because the truth is at the Federal level the Dems are just as much in on it as the Repubs are and nothing will be solved by sticking our heads in the ground and pretending thats not true.

                            So if you would like to continue the conversation please stop being abstract and passive/aggressive and get to the point and say what you mean without some air that you are superior. Because as of now you have not given me confidence that you are fully clear and what you are trying to say or why.

                            When the Republicans are in power they get what they want and when the Democrats are in power they still get what they want. At what point do people finally see it is just theater? ~ Me

                            by fToRrEeEsSt on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:51:54 PM PDT

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                          •  That is not where we started (0+ / 0-)

                            We started here.

                            Why you'd say otherwise is a puzzle, since all you need do is parent up to beginning of the thread to see otherwise.

                            There's nothing cryptic in my suggestion that you reread my comments. It's obviously apt. Since you don't recall where our exchange began, you've clearly lost track.

                            If by rigid you mean an adherence to fact, then I suppose you would find me rigid. Perhaps you could do with a little of such "rigidity" yourself.

                            For one thing, you might not conflate your subjective opinion with "truth". Unless you are a trained mental health professional, your opinion of J.W.'s sanity is worth no more than anyone else and certainly can't be described as either true or "the truth".

                            Moreover, crazy isn't a synonym for cloudy vision. If you can't distinguish between the two, I'd say that's your own problem.

                            Frankly, your entire final paragraph strikes me nothing more than projection on your part. You don't seem to be able to see any point of view other than your own.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:47:58 PM PDT

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