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View Diary: Astounding: David Koch's 1980 VP Run: Kill Medicare, Social Security, Minimum Wage, Public Schools (149 comments)

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  •  There is a Libertarian "paradise" already: (27+ / 0-)

    Somalia. But, why don't they all move there? Easy. They would stick out like night and day. But, as my sig suggests, there's a fix for that...

    I'm variable race by having reverse engineered John Howard Griffin.

    by 99percenter on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 05:07:40 PM PDT

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    •  99p - this seems to be a common theme here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slothlax, SpaK

      There is NOTHING about Somalia that is libertarian. How difficult is this to understand? Libertarians support a strong government to enforce contracts, property rights, and public safety, but not much else. Somalia has no government enforcement of contracts, property rights or public safety, it's not libertarian. This isn't difficult.  

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 10:14:03 PM PDT

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      •  I think Somalia is a metaphor and not a literal (9+ / 0-)

        Comparison. Apparently ... as I take such comments ... The point is that libertarianism devolves into free market anarchy. The strong government would be captive of the Koch Krew.

        I wonder if libertarians have ever considered that their form of govt would end up with about 60 pct of the population lawyers, and about 80 pct suing the other 80 pct?

        Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

        by dadadata on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 03:27:42 AM PDT

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      •  How do you even have enforcement of contracts (10+ / 0-)

        If you have a "repeal of all taxation"? Courts cost money, judges cost money, police cost money. Remove taxation and "policing" is done by whoever can pay a group of thugs to roam around the streets with a 50 cal on the back of a pickup truck.

        Somalia is not brought up because it represents an exact view of libertarianism. It is brought up because there are really no other examples of populous states which have survived under the ideas expoused by the libertarians such as the kochs.

        Ask top al Qaeda leaders about Obama's foreign policy. Wait, you can't. They're dead. -Paul Begala

        by Fickle on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 08:01:50 AM PDT

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        •  My guess is that civil courts would be paid for (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          by user fees.

          Somalia is brought up because the people have no idea what they are writing about. There is nothing about Somalia that is consistent with libertarian thought.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 04:26:35 PM PDT

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          •  Wouldn't there need to be a market of companies (0+ / 0-)

            providing courts? Otherwise what is a "court fee" but a tax? There's then the question of who regulates the courts. Democratic election? No, that's government, again. Elections  require taxes of some kind, perhaps voluntary taxes (a.k.a. "charity" or "philanthropism" depending on the amount). I guess if not enough funds are raised, there'll be no election that year. Capitalism is inherently anti-democratic, libertarian capitalism particularly so, despite the populist-style rhetoric.

            That's unless you'd trust ElectionCo, or whatever, to run all the elections. A market again. But where would the money come from? A poll tax? Ah, no taxes. A poll fee, then. So what would be a reasonable price for a vote?

            Unless you reject capitalism itself, "no taxes" means "no government, no non-profitable services and no elections". That's including voluntary taxes as above. Making taxes voluntary provides a means of coercion and thus corruption, but that's a different issue.

            •  Libertarians are NOT anarchists (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Libertarians believe in government, just very limited government. In their view both criminal and civil courts are one of the few functions of government they support. They like user fees, rather than taxes, to fund government services.  

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:14:27 AM PDT

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              •  Right. And if you don't have the "user fees" you (0+ / 0-)

                have no access. Libertarians apparently can't think past their illusions. Libertarians apparently don't want to be part of any community of people who are not doing well financially, emotionally, physically. Libertarians apparently do not believe in the idea of "the commons," thus, no support for national parks, national forests, public beaches, public schools, etc. Libertarian ideas will get us an Ayn Randian, Koch-brothers horrifying world that the corporatists are also moving us toward. As for public safety, safety would only be for those who have property and cash to hire others to protect it. Public safety would not have do with vaccinations, health care, food support, good roads, well-maintained public utilities, etc. Whose going to figure out how to make money from people who have none because they have no property? Who is gong to establsih a business to provide these things to people who cannot pay? People are less valuable than property in a libertarian philosophy.  In a libertarian world, how long till most people BECOME property, or, first stage, serfs?

                •  shelia - my only point was that there is nothing (0+ / 0-)

                  in Somalia that represents libertarian principles, yet people here keep writing that Somalia is a libertarian paradise, and that libertarians should move there. I am not here to defend libertarians, I just can't let blatant stupidity go unchallenged.

                  "let's talk about that"

                  by VClib on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 02:38:23 PM PDT

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          •  More likely (0+ / 0-)

            a scheme of verdict auctioning
            (so basically no real change, only a change in appearance)

      •  Except Libertarianism in 'Murica...... (9+ / 0-)

        doesn't give two fucks about public safety whatsoever. American Libertarianism espouses government by whoever has the most money, and everything and everyone has a price. That's what they've been after all along.

        I write a series called 'My Life as an Aspie', documenting my experiences before and after my A.S. diagnosis as a way to help fellow Aspies and parents of Aspies and spread awareness. If I help just one person by doing this, then I've served a purpose.

        by Homer177 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:15:14 AM PDT

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      •  Libertarian (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Actually, VClib, there ARE no libertarian governments anywhere because it was discovered very soon after its inception as an idea that it wouldn't work in any society.

        Somalia is, as someone has suggested, a metaphor for no government except as a military force.  I'm kind of surprised the Kochs didn't emigrate to Russia during the aftermath of Peristroika when all the greedy predators there (like the Kochs themselves) were raping the economy.

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