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View Diary: Cars Cause Republicanism (338 comments)

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  •  the tone of this whole diary sucks (3.71)
    Yeah, calling suburbanites idiots because they don't have enough money to live in the nice section of a city, and send their kids to private school, is no way to win friends and influence people.  People drive because they want to live outside of the city so they can send their kids to decent schools, live in neighborhoods where their kids can ride their bikes, and play in a yard they can call their own.  

    absolute freedom for one individual undoubtedly limit's the freedom of another.

    by jbou on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:45:18 AM PST

    •  You fail to see the big picture. n/t (none)

      Essential funk: 'Impeach the President' by the Honeydrippers

      by pontechango on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:00:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  explain to me the "big picture" (4.00)
        I know all about how the auto industry and oil industry lobbied for road building back in the 50's. I know all about how the auto industry advertises and the oil industry lobbies to make sure that they get their agenda passed.  I know all of that, but what you fail to see is that self righteous know it all language like this diary is just going to turn off your average suburbanite person who lives where they live because of the kids.  

        BTW, wtf is up with rating my comment a 1? You drop a 3 word response and then rate a run, get your shit together and actually respond to what I said, and stop being a passive aggressive baby.  

        absolute freedom for one individual undoubtedly limit's the freedom of another.

        by jbou on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:15:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your argument is entirely subjective (4.00)
          I rated you a 1 for whining that this diary "sucks" and for making a narrow-minded argument to the contrary, which actually reenforces the jist of the diary.  Sorry if my explanation was inadequate.  You are obviously defensive because you live in the suburbs and commute, and you can argue that it's for the sake of the kids until the cows come home.  I DON'T DISAGREE.  The point is NOT that it's safer and cheaper to raise children in the suburbs.  The point is that government policies often perpetuate and fail to address this consequence of BAD URBAN PLANNING and BAD ENERGY POLICY.  What we need is urban renewal and revived urban communities, not more subdivision sprawl.

          Essential funk: 'Impeach the President' by the Honeydrippers

          by pontechango on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:28:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's okay... (4.00)
            ...I gave him a '4' cause he's right.  Living in the burbs is about self-imposed social, racial, and economic isolation.  Cars don't make people what they are, they help facilitate the isolation they want to achieve.  

            No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

            by CrazyHorse on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:35:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Except that it's not merely self-imposed (4.00)
              Subdivision sprawl is also imposed by preferential land use policies and economic factors.  There is no inherent reason that suburban or rural living should be safer or cheaper then urban living.  I agree with everything else you say.

              Essential funk: 'Impeach the President' by the Honeydrippers

              by pontechango on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:43:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I hate the suburbs (a rant) (4.00)
                I grew up in the semi-rural suburbs of King County, and I think suburbs are actually rather terrible for kids, particularly teenagers. There are no sidewalks or bike lanes, meaning that kids who want to go anywhere either 1. Have to get mommy and daddy to drive them, or 2. Get hit by cars. So of course suburban teens grow up dreaming of the day when they can drive their own cars, it becomes a powerful symbol of adult autonomy.

                The closest thing to a public space is the local shopping mall.

                Suburban teenagers are BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS and engage in rampant vandalism, drug abuse, and stupid sex.

                A lot of people aren't actually saving money by living in the suburbs -- they're just using the cheaper real estate to buy a bigger house. So then they spend all their money filling the house with junk.

                My parents' big ol' suburban mansion has been robbed, and the interior of their car has been stripped of seats -- twice!

                There's one kind of "security" which comes from not having any people around. I submit, that security is illusory (and sometimes blatantly racist). Real security comes from having neighbors, friends, and communities.

                The much-vaunted suburban schools aren't that great either. I mean, I guess some of them look good on paper, but it always seemed to me that the rampant anti-intellectualism of suburban culture offsets the advantages of having money to invest in shiny computers.

                I don't know, maybe poor urban schools are even worse (although rich urban schools are much better). Still, if my junior high and high school is what suburbanites are talking about when they say they live out in the boonies for "good schools" then it really isn't worth all the extra gasoline.

                People always say they live in the suburbs for their kids. Popular mythology, or possibly self-delusion -- kids don't like suburbs, adults do.

                •  I agree... (none)
                  ...I hate 'em too, but I understand why people live in them.  The author of this article doesn't.

                  No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

                  by CrazyHorse on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:34:27 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I had the same experience (4.00)
                  Grew up in the far-flung suburbs, and reached the same conclusion:  boy, I wouldn't want to raise kids there.

                  It was nice and quiet, and safe within the confines of the subdivision.  We had yards to play in and lots of undeveloped spaces.  On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing to do.  Everything was in the next town over---schools, libraries, stores, theaters---and it was too far to bike (or if you tried, your parents would kill you.)

                  Heck, outside of the subdivision's perimiter, just crossing a street could be lethal.  So even now that the area is surrounded by stores that spread from nearby towns, still people drive to get to them.

                  If you want to raise kids in the suburbs, you must be prepared to be their chauffeur all the time.  If you don't like this, hope that they never develop an interest in anything except for television.

                  As for crime, that may depend some on how old the subdivision is, and on surrounding cities.  A drug dealer would be crazy to ignore the income potential of thousands of bored kids stranded in cornfields, so a nearby city with drug or gang problems are your problem.  By the time I moved away, there were stabbings in my old high school, a drive-by shooting (!!) three houses down from mine (!!) and I knew two kids I went to school with who eventually got sentenced to prison for violent crimes, one of them infanticide.

                  On the other hand, my parents could afford a house there.  I agree with the poster way up the thread about the lack of choices people have:  sometimes our values are a luxury.

                  Caj

                •  Rush (the band) had a song about this (none)
                  Subdivisions (from the 1982 album "Signals"):

                  Sprawling on the fringes of the city
                  In geometric order
                  An insulated border
                  In between the bright lights
                  And the far unlit unknown

                  Growing up it all seems so one-sided
                  Opinions all provided
                  The future pre-decided
                  Detached and subdivided
                  In the mass production zone

                  Nowhere is the dreamer
                  Or the misfit so alone

                  Subdivisions ---
                  In the high school halls
                  In the shopping malls
                  Conform or be cast out
                  Subdivisions ---
                  In the basement bars
                  In the backs of cars
                  Be cool or be cast out
                  Any escape might help to smooth
                  The unattractive truth
                  But the suburbs have no charms to soothe
                  The restless dreams of youth

                  Drawn like moths we drift into the city
                  The timeless old attraction
                  Cruising for the action
                  Lit up like a firefly
                  Just to feel the living night

                  Some will sell their dreams for small desires
                  Or lose the race to rats
                  Get caught in ticking traps
                  And start to dream of somewhere
                  To relax their restless flight

                  Somewhere out of a memory
                  Of lighted streets on quiet nights...

                •  what are you talking about (none)
                  what do urban kids have to do that suburban kids dont?

                  and suburban kids get tennis courts, outdoor basketball courts, and other niceties that i'm sure are hard to come by in the big city

                  I believe in saving money. I believe in having a house. I believe in keeping things clean. I believe in exercising. www.walken2008.com

                  by The Exalted on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 11:43:22 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Changed to a 3 (none)
          because you did make it clear that you were talking about the "tone" of the diary and not the content.  Sorry.

          Essential funk: 'Impeach the President' by the Honeydrippers

          by pontechango on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:48:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  yup (none)
      people like big houses and nice yards and good schools

      amazing -- they should be fried as class traitors!!

      I believe in saving money. I believe in having a house. I believe in keeping things clean. I believe in exercising. www.walken2008.com

      by The Exalted on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 11:44:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If by big houses (none)
        You mean McMansions, then yes, they should. ;-)

        But really, nice yards? Here in SoCal, they are lot fillers with very little yard. That makes no sense to me in this near perfect climate. Not to mention the lack of anything resembling architecture.

        <snark>

        "I am Joe's raging bile duct."

        by Floja Roja on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:15:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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