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  •  if it's ignorance (4.00 / 6)

    or idealism, it matters little. Nader and his supporters are GOP tools. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Nader, if you must, get out there and stump for the issues you feel strongly about. But you must, get off (or stay off) the ballot.

    The Thorn Papers
    Y'all come by now.

    by mitch2k2 on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 07:25:21 AM PDT

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    •  I agree (1.00 / 4)

      But not for the same reason. How can Nader think his candidacy is viable if he needs Repugs to get 1000 votes? Nader can't gather 1000 votes? What is this? Is Nader liberal or not? He won't win, but does he want Kerry, the other liberal candidate to win or not? Does he want liberalism to win? Bill Clinton has to intervene here. He is the only one who could do it.

      by rastaliberal on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 08:22:50 AM PDT

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      •  well (4.00 / 3)

        if Nader had trouble earlier this year rounding up 1000 progressives, in PORTLAND for God's sake, during basketball playoffs, then what the h*ll is he thinking having a gathering during opening weekend of Fahrenheit 9/11?

        Oh, maybe he's not counting on PROGRESSIVES to show up in big numbers. Now I think I'm catching on....

        There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. --Benjamin Disraeli, cited by Mark Twain

        by sheba on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 08:28:08 AM PDT

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        •  who was it (none / 0)

          in response to Nader's choice to run again someone, I can't recall who, said something to the effect of, Tweedle Dee is still Tweedle Dee, but Tweedle Dum has morphed into a fascist lunatic hell bent on global domination, and that changes everything.

          The Thorn Papers
          Y'all come by now.

          by mitch2k2 on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 02:58:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Strange Things are Happening (none / 0)

          I am just in from the 1:15 p.m. PDT showing of Fahrenheit 9/11 at the Fox Tower theater in downtown Portland.  As I stood on a long line to buy tickets for the last showing of the day that wasn't sold out, a Kerry supporter was signing up people to work on his Oregon campaign.  And a Nader supporter was handing out announcements of the nominating convention to get Nader on the ballot.  People I saw were wadding or tearing them and stuffing them in their pockets when they realized what they were looking at.  I was at the third showing of the day, and the auditorium quickly filled.

          Just as the commercials were about to end (is everyone subjected to them now, as we are?) the film stopped, lights started flashing and a spectral voice began ordering us to clear the building.  All the theater's nine or 10 cinemas emptied onto the street, including one that was in the middle of a Fahrenheit showing.  After 10 minutes or so, we were permitted to re-enter the building.  "Something was tripped," a worker told me when I asked what was up.

          Back in the auditorium, most people successfully found their ways back to their old seats, as you would expect of an audience for this film.  One exception was a woman to tried to steal a seat from a blind girl, but she was promptly berated by surrounding audience members into finding another seat, down in the neckache section.

          The film was an extremely moving polemic.  Michael Moore is not fair to George W. Bush, but you quickly conclude he is as fair as he needs to be, maybe more so.  Bush indicts himself sufficiently without Moore's doing a thing except showing us film clips of him doing it.  Moore's exaggerations, low blows and hilarious moments are earned by the film's successful argument of its major themes.  This audience, in contrast to one in another auditorium, got to see the film uninterrupted from start to finish.  We laughed, we cried, we got angry - yeah, I know it's a cliché, but this film does it to you.

          As the audience left, it came upon a large Nader demonstration in front of the building.  Guys were waving "Help Stop Bush!" signs and trying to recruit audience members for the nominating convention.  The Kerry volunteer recruiter may have been there, but she was swallowed up in the crowd.  TV news reporters and videographers were there, and naturally they were focusing on the Nader demonstration, and on a couple of arguments going on, rather than asking audience members what they thought of the film.  Whatever else the Nader folks accomplish, they have made certain that the thrust of tonight's news coverage will include Nader, and will not be solely about Moore's wonderful film.

          "A class of experts is inevitably so removed from common interests as to become a class with private interests and private knowledge." -- John Dewey

          by Vico on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 05:00:17 PM PDT

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      •  Sorry - going way off-topic on reply... (none / 0)


        Is this Bill Clinton blog for REAL?!?  He's writing about buying Hilary a $35.00 necklace off of Amazon and how all these women are giving him their phone number??

        Kevin Spacey is GAY!?!?  

        SHOOT ME!!!!

        by Houstonia on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 11:39:34 AM PDT

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      •  Oh, Nader can get 1000 votes . . . (none / 1)

        when you start to realize exactly how low he'll stoop to do it.

        This from Alterman's site today on Slacker Friday:

        Name: Linda Lamb
        Hometown: Corvallis, OR
        Expose Nader Day: More ammunition
        I got this in my e-mail today, from Jeannie Berg (jeannie@21stdems.org), a progressive Oregon group about Nader's tactics in trying to register here.  (The last time he tried to get 1,000 people to gather and endorse him to get on the ballot and vote, he failed with only about 700.)

        She wrote:
        From: "Jeannie Berg"
        Subject: Unbelievable Nader news... Please forward immediately
        Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:05:50 -0700

        IMPORTANT -- PROGRESSIVES PLEASE FORWARD

        Today (Thursday, June 24th) the Nader campaign made a desperate, last-ditch effort to make the Oregon ballot by teaming up with Republicans eager to help get Bush re-elected.

        Ralph Nader himself appeared on Lars Larson's right-wing talk radio show this afternoon to urge Lars' listeners to come to his nominating convention this Saturday.  Guest host Victor Bok directly told the audience that they should help Ralph make the ballot to siphon liberal votes and allow George Bush to win Oregon.

        This evening, news reporters have confirmed that calls have been made to Republicans from right-wing anti-tax group Citizens for a Sound Economy.  Callers said, "I am calling because we have a chance to stop John Kerry from winning Oregon."  They went on to urge members to come out on Saturday and sign the petition to nominate Ralph Nader.

        Additional calls were made to registered Republicans from Oregon Family Council.  The script itself blatantly states that without Republicans "we don't think many people will show up" confirming the difficulty Nader has had in attracting 1000 supporters after his first effort to make the Oregon ballot failed earlier this year.

        Many progressives have long argued that Ralph has failed to understand how his campaign would help defeat John Kerry in November.  These shocking developments suggest that Ralph knows all too well his value to the right, and worse, demonstrates his willingness to put his own agenda ahead of the larger cause of defeating Bush. . .

        Can you believe it?

        by chrississippi on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 02:15:57 PM PDT

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        •  entirely. (none / 0)

          unfortunately. Now, to give the man credit, maybe his inflated ego has got him believing that he can turn these right wing folks, given the chance. maybe he sincerely believes his views will shift theirs. unfortunately, even if this is the case, Nader's being used, plain and simple. whether he allows himself to be used to drive one more nail into the coffin of american democracy is his choice.

          The Thorn Papers
          Y'all come by now.

          by mitch2k2 on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 05:13:11 PM PDT

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    •  Clever Strategy! (none / 1)

         A true master of psychology, you are.  There is no better way to make passionate, idealistic, and energetic people believe they have a part to play in the Democratic party than to blithely ignore their earnest beliefs and insult them.   That "you are with us or against us" philosphy with a healthy dose of bitter hatred always wins converts to our side.  If we really want to seal the deal, all we need to do is declare all Nader supporters terrorist-loving America-haters. Any whiny little idealist who thinks it might be nice to have the option to vote for someone who doesn't support the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, and Corporate dominated politics is surely a tool of the Bush administration.  Yup, every single one of 'em is an stupid, illiterate moron. Lets keep ignoring their issues and just lash out at their unwillingness to sacrifice their hope and idealism, after all this strategy  worked so well in 2000.
          It's our big tent, dammit.  And if you don't play things our way you're a Republican!

      by MicahA on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 02:38:41 PM PDT

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      •  Nader and Kerry (none / 0)

        Sarcasm is almost never a debate winner. And it's certainly not loving and inclusive. But let's move on.

        Look, most of the people I know who don't want Nader to run acknowledge that he has a brilliant career of service. And they hate to see him trash it this way. It's that he's obviously tipping power - power he can't gain for himself, not in a million years - towards a very bad man through his campaign. From a simple, moral standpoint, I dislike the man for that. I do not want him to be my leader if he cannot be a pragmatist as well as an idealist. Moreover, I lost a great deal of respect for him when he showed up on "The Daily Show" and told me that people wanted to steal my genes. I think he has a screw or two loose, myself.

        He does have a right to run if he can do so. Obviously he does. But do we have to be happy about it, knowing that the cost of his pride (or misguided judgement, at best) has cost us four more years of a man whose Presidency causes people to die, every day? A man not even popularly elected? I say that not only do we not have to cheer him, it is our duty to try to stop him. With reason, yes. And we should be more gentle in our language to a public servant and his obviously well-meaning supporters. But we must try to stop him. Because when Bush is President, people die. Wrong acts are committed daily. Do I think no one will die if Kerry is President? No, I don't think that for a second. Do I think that he is a better man than Bush, and a better leader? Yes, I do. And I think he's a better man than Nader, too. Kerry risked his life to save one man - this is fact. Nader will not risk a quiet retirement to save a nation.

        We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anaïs Nin

        by Valentine on Fri Jun 25, 2004 at 06:20:58 PM PDT

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