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View Diary: Pat Buchanan, Caught Making Sense! (331 comments)

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  •  I think this thinking is utterly wrong (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Proud SW FL Lib, Finck II

    I am sorry, I know it is de rigueur to bash anything McCain and the neocon Georgian ties....but this doesn't make Russia's actions correct.

    We can agree or disagree whether Georgia's actions in Ossetia as being correct or not....it's a part of their territory.  But it's a totally different issue than Russia, a third party in the issue, imposing it's will there well meaning or not.

    I think Saakashvili is a tool, and our support very suspect.  But that doesn't make Russia a shining knight. We have people here quoting the Jamestown people. My God.

    we routinely (and rightly) condemn the wingnuts for being insensitive to the very real price that real people pay for rhetoric and political points...yet here we are just dumping on the people in these regions, who are being killed, possibly by the thousands, so that Georgia (bad), can be replaced by Russia (better?  really?) in subjugating their homeland.

    "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by SteveP on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:00:48 PM PDT

    •  No one is making Rusia out (7+ / 0-)

      to be a shining knight.

      Georgians got screwed because their President decided to ally with the Bush government.  Now people are dead.  

      •  Well Said! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, kyril, MariaWr

        Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. ..John F. Kennedy

        by irishamerican on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:13:14 PM PDT

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        •  well said, but utterly pointless (0+ / 0-)

          you have to deal with the situation, not whether it scores domestic political points.

          We all know Saakashvili is a tool.  But is that a get out of jail free card?

          We can't practice this kind of rhetoric, otherwise we justify the attacks on the naivete of the blog.

          "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by SteveP on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:21:35 PM PDT

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      •  yes...but.... (0+ / 0-)

        the fact the people are dying is the issue here. We are praising Pat(!) for slamming Saakashvili.  There's a problem here, and it has long and tangled roots, but let's not give Russia a free pass nor, more importantly, fail to learn the lessons presented here.

        At some point we have to toe the line of rule of law.  That means third parties OUT. Geneva conventions about use of force to settle border disputes verboten and so on.  Just because you or I think that Saakashvili and the neocons are the shit that they are, doesn't justify Russia taking by force what they view as their imperial property.

        "you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to your own facts" -Daniel Patrick Moynihan

        by SteveP on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:18:45 PM PDT

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        •  So Far (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maxschell, Nimbus

          Russia hasn't done anything except respond to Georgia's provocation - a provocation that almost unquestionably took place with the knowledge and approval of the Bush Administration.  It is premature to accuse Russia of taking property or asserting imperial ambitions.  Is Russia's response excessive?  Undoubtedly, but imagine how "restrained" the US would be if Castro started lobbing shells into Guantanamo.  The EU negotiated the terms of a cease fire and Russia agreed to them.  IMO this conflict could easily blow over into a non-event unless the US chooses to make it a test of strength, in which case Russia will be sure not to do anything that makes it look like it is capitulating to the US.  Fortunately, Joe Lieberman is on his way to Georgia and I'm sure he will make certain that everybody keeps his head (snark).

        •  Link (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maxschell

          http://www.stratfor.com/...
          BTW here's a good link for the proposition that the US had to have forewarning of Georgia's actions.  George Friedman is a very conservative, but very reliable analyst on military/intelligence matters.

          •  People This is Bush/Cheney 101 (0+ / 0-)

            They have been interested in destabilizing the Middle East from the get go.

            Why?

            Reason #1: High Oil Prices.

            Destabilization of the Middle East -> High Oil Prices.  Reason number two is of course warmaking and chaos which the neocons love because they think it is good for Israel, and a high percentage of American contractors/businesspeople love (remember that Bush's 25% = 75 million + Americans) because they can get rich off other people's misery and death.

            Of course, said destabilization was helped by the short-selling conducted by Saudi and emirate funds over the past 18 months.

            Notice how quickly the price of oil dropped after the moratorium on short-selling went into effect in July?

            Anyway this is yet another lesson from Bush/Cheney 101: create a war to lock in long-term profits and power.

            After all, ya didn't think they'd leave quietly didja'?

            PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

            by maxschell on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 01:16:26 PM PDT

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        •  yes but...but... (0+ / 0-)

          We are were we are and we seem to have a confused picture of what is actually happening,

          CNN and MSM seem to be rolling pictures of days ago of Russian attacks.

          BBC seem to be runing it as a lower profile story and talking about Russians patrolling in Georgian territory.

          There are armed Georgian civillians, there are armed South Ossetian civillians and irregular militia. they are killing each other.

          The Russians may not be doing enough to control the area they are in but there are reports they are stopping it. Them pulling out as quickly as they came may be exactly wrong at present.

          Pull out in phased way over days or weeks yes, the media narritive that is running which says ceasefire was signed so they must all go home inside 24 hours is nuts.

    •  The fault lies in portraying the world and its (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bustacap, TomP, kyril

      issues as a series of good guys/bad guys arguments. Sooner or later you run into situations like this where there is no one to root for but lots of innocent people are put in harm's way. If this country was better informed and was able to use the intellect that is hidden deep within us, perhaps we could have headed off this crisis before a shot was fired thus making us a superPOWER and not a superBULLY for everyone in the world to emulate.

      Let me do right to all, and wrong no man. - Dr. C. Savage, Jr.

      by pwrmac5 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:15:20 PM PDT

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    •  I agree, Mr. P (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Proud SW FL Lib

      I'm afraid we are seeing here that very dangerous "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude.  In the world, it resulted in American support of Bin Laden in the eighties.  Here at Dkos, it has resulted in kindly words for the reactionaries of Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran... and now by implication Russia.

      Yes, Georgia made a very bad bargain by allying itself so closely to the Bush administration -- though Russia's actions now show why they did.  Putin is crushing Georgia because he doesn't want a pro-Western democracy on his borders.  What progressive in the world would defend that?

      McCain: Running for Hoover's 21st term

      by Finck II on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 02:20:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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