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  •  You force me to speak plainly then (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Nightprowlkitty, Edger

    What that statement comes down to is that war crimes are ok (since you are not even trying to prosecute them) if they give you the political advantage.

    The worst possible example of the ends justifying the means.

    •   The best way to prevent war crimes is to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma

      prevent war criminals from holding the office of president and vice president.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Wed Jan 21, 2009 at 11:23:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Law (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma

      is, ideally, established as a means to an end. It's not specifically established to delineate Right from Wrong.

      I think you and I agree on the end goal: We want torture to end. We don't want to see it done in America's name again.

      Your premise is that a Bush Investigation and Prosecution, and possibly even a hanging, would create a forceful precedent so it never happened in America ever again.

      I'm a little more cynical. I think people in power don't see prosecution of war crimes as deterrent. I think people in power see prosecutions as part and parcel of losing power. The crime, in their minds, is in that their regime lost.

      In a way we've already prosecuted in November. It's easy to think how lame and impotent a democratic, electoral vanquishing is until you've inhabited a nation where power is attained through blood and violence. We have bloodless changes of power and bloodless public rejections of action. And yet, our peaceful system instead of a victory of civility is regarded as Not Enough. We want the blood.

      If Bush were found guilty of war crimes, what then?

      A hanging?

      Regime 1 is defeated by Regime 2, and Regime 2 prosecutes and executes the leader of Regime 1.

      This is a very very dangerous pathway we're on.

      I love my cigar too, but I take it out once in a while.

      by Muskegon Critic on Wed Jan 21, 2009 at 01:10:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If Bush is found guilty (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Muskegon Critic

        I would be happy to let him go and have him live his life out in comfort.....as the War Criminal he is...officially.

        Justice is having his crimes acknowledged, publicized, and officially recorded....for posterity and for precedent.

        As you say War Crimes will happen again, do we want then, to make them legal? By not prosecuting them whenever....and wherever...they occur?

        •  Two things (0+ / 0-)

          See...I know where you're coming from. And I can't believe I'm on the opposite side of you. I'd love, a year from now, to know that Bush has been tried and convicted for his alleged crimes. But it's the between here and there that is going to damage us.

          First: Incidentally Bush argued exactly the same thing in his case to invade Iraq. He argued that Iraq violated portions of the UN Security Council Resolution of 1990(WMDs aside) and the law HAD to be enforced for the UN to have any teeth. The UN said, "well yeah...but invasion won't be good for anybody, so just let it go. They're contained, they're stable...just let it go." I believe, like the UN did, that laws are tools and not lines in the sand. Sure some Kurds were killed and tortured from time to time, but Iraq was a stable nation and a regional destabilization would be bad and unpredictable. I agree with them. And I believe the situation applies here.

          Second: Look into your heart and tell me honestly that you or even a Democratic Senate or Congress can be impartial in this case. Tell me for real and for true that our conservative countrymen in our relatively internally peaceful United States won't see a prosecution and potential execution performed by the incoming political victors as a Kangaroo court. Do you seriously think that won't cause irreparable damage to American democracy forever after? And do you think our representatives wouldn't convict and snuff Bush's pathetic life if they thought it meant a permanent Democratic majority? This won't be perceived as justice in the end. Not even by a lot of people who despise Bush.

          How on earth would that look to the world? We'd look even more like a large Banana Republic than we already do.

          Americans are innocent until proven guilty in an impartial court. The US congress is absolutely the wrong body to be anywhere near this. The Hague would be the only place where any of this could even remotely be taken as Non Political. And even then, I have a hard time believing they could be impartial.

          This is a TOXIC proposition and won't end well.

          I love my cigar too, but I take it out once in a while.

          by Muskegon Critic on Wed Jan 21, 2009 at 06:12:32 PM PST

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        •  And I realize (0+ / 0-)

          you said that execution wasn't your goal. But a conviction would lead to imprisonment at least and that would still be bad bad news.

          Bleh.

          But.......I agree with you on one level. I dunno. I want his acts to not have been done. I want them to be UNdone. I want to make reparations with the people and nations we've fucked over. I want America to be Good.

          I love my cigar too, but I take it out once in a while.

          by Muskegon Critic on Wed Jan 21, 2009 at 06:20:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  sigh...not much on my diary (0+ / 0-)

          thanks for Rec-ing it though! Mightily neighborly.

          Maybe it was too preachy. Just a tad.

          Or it's possible I'm just on crack. I could be.

          :D

          I love my cigar too, but I take it out once in a while.

          by Muskegon Critic on Wed Jan 21, 2009 at 06:34:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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