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View Diary: Rumsfeld's Revenge: Army Field Manual to Allow Torture (217 comments)

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  •  Boo hoo. (3+ / 0-)

    Torture is shoving glass shards under a guy's fingernails, burning him with a red-hot brand, half-drowning him, or cutting off his ear.  Don't expect Americans to get upset about putting some terrorist in a room by himself and turning the lights off.

    ---
    "If Obama is the nominee, we are doomed." -Rush Limbaugh
    "Always speak before Barack Obama, not after Barack Obama." -Olbermann

    by Troutnut on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:12:32 PM PST

    •  Until it happens to them and they miss (7+ / 0-)

      American Idol and then they get really fucking bent out of shape.

    •  I dearly hope... (12+ / 0-)

      ...yours is not the majority opinion in the U.S. on this.

      "There is only one caution. Don't let it happen again." -- edscan, 21 Jan 2009

      by ArtSchmart on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:19:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, there's no doubt it is. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Herticalt

        Go ahead and poll the question, "Is it torture to put a terrorist in a room without his friends?"  You'll find that Daily Kos is not representative of the country at large on that one.

        ---
        "If Obama is the nominee, we are doomed." -Rush Limbaugh
        "Always speak before Barack Obama, not after Barack Obama." -Olbermann

        by Troutnut on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:21:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nice phrasing in that question. (8+ / 0-)

          Rove would have been proud.

          "There is only one caution. Don't let it happen again." -- edscan, 21 Jan 2009

          by ArtSchmart on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:22:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  In what way is this so-called torture (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            liberalconservative, Herticalt

            anything more than just giving the terrorists a "time-out?"

            Isolation.  Lights out.  Maybe even going to bed without dinner.  This sounds like something a parent would do to a kid who finger-painted the family cat.  And you expect Americans to get outraged if we do it to terrorists?

            ---
            "If Obama is the nominee, we are doomed." -Rush Limbaugh
            "Always speak before Barack Obama, not after Barack Obama." -Olbermann

            by Troutnut on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:27:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Try looking here for starters. (6+ / 0-)

              "There is only one caution. Don't let it happen again." -- edscan, 21 Jan 2009

              by ArtSchmart on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:35:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Then go here. (8+ / 0-)

              From Eastern State Penitentiary website:

              Eastern State Penitentiary broke sharply with the prisons of its day, abandoning corporal punishment and ill treatment. This massive new structure, opened in 1829, became one of the most expensive American buildings of its day and soon the most famous prison in the world. The Penitentiary would not simply punish, but move the criminal toward spiritual reflection and change. The method was a Quaker-inspired system of isolation from other prisoners, with labor. The early system was strict. To prevent distraction, knowledge of the building, and even mild interaction with guards, inmates were hooded whenever they were outside their cells. But the proponents of the system believed strongly that the criminals, exposed, in silence, to thoughts of their behavior and the ugliness of their crimes, would become genuinely penitent. Thus the new word, penitentiary.

              [snip]

              Charles Dickens did not agree. He recounts his 1842 visit to Eastern State Penitentiary Chapter Seven in his travel journal, American Notes for General Circulation. The chapter is titled "Philadelphia and its Solitary Prison:"

              "In its intention I am well convinced that it is kind, humane, and meant for reformation; but I am persuaded that those who designed this system of Prison Discipline, and those benevolent gentleman who carry it into execution, do not know what it is that they are doing....I hold this slow and daily tampering with the mysteries of the brain to be immeasurably worse than any torture of the body; and because its ghastly signs and tokens are not so palpable to the eye,... and it extorts few cries that human ears can hear; therefore I the more denounce it, as a secret punishment in which slumbering humanity is not roused up to stay."

              The critics eventually prevailed. The Pennsylvania System was abandoned in 1913. In some countries in Europe and Asia the separate system continued until the post-Second World War period.

              "There is only one caution. Don't let it happen again." -- edscan, 21 Jan 2009

              by ArtSchmart on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:44:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Nice phrasing (7+ / 0-)

          That's a bit like saying "many people enjoy surfing, so how bad could waterboarding be?"

    •  Yours is an uninformed understanding (20+ / 0-)

      but probably quite common. Go put on blindfolds, put yourself in a dark closet, stay there for a month, see no one, and let your keepers be the people in the neighborhood or your city you most fear. Oh, yes, and let those keepers be the ones who decide if you ever get out. If after that you feel okay, then you might have a point.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:24:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I feel sensory deprivation is clearly torture (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        truong son traveler, Valtin, cgirard

        however, segregation may be needed. The wikipedia article ArtSchmart linked to provides some good reasons.

        Those who accept the practice consider it necessary for prisoners who are considered dangerous to other people ('the most predatory' prisoners),[1] those who might be capable of leading crime groups even from within, or those who are kept 'incommunicado' for purported reasons of national security. Finally, it may be used for prisoners who are at high risk of being attacked by other inmates, such as pedophiles or witnesses who are in prison themselves.

        Having worked in corrections I can tell you it is needed despite being undesirable. Where I was worked it was called Seg and there was no sensory deprivation. It was used for those who where a danger to themselves or others. A lessor level was called PC (protective custody) and was used for groups that could not safely be in the general population but could be together with others in PC.

        Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself. - President Harry Truman

        by notrouble on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 03:30:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The issue of segregation v. separation (5+ / 0-)

          is clearly discussed in the AFM. I covered it in my earlier diary, How the U.S. Army's Field Manual Codified Torture -- and Still Does.

          Separation is not about the "normal interrogation process" [the following quote is from Appendix M]:

             The use of separation should not be confused with the detainee-handling techniques approved in Appendix D. Specifically, the use of segregation during prisoner handling (Search, Silence, Segregate, Speed, Safeguard and Tag) should not be confused with the use of separation as a restricted interrogation technique....

             Separation should be used as part of a well-orchestrated strategy involving the innovative application of unrestricted approach techniques. Separation requires special approval, judicious execution, special control measures and rigorous oversight.

          War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

          by Valtin on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 03:52:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You must consider (6+ / 0-)

          that I am not your ordinary diarist, at least on this subject. I have read and reread the material, I have consulted experts and read the literature. Still, I can miss things, so I don't mind being queried. But ask yourself why you are so quick to make exception? Do you really know what you think you know? Personal experience is a double-edged sword. It give you essential insights, but can also blind you to seeking further examination of material when it is called for.

          But please, keep your questions coming.

          War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

          by Valtin on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 03:54:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you haven't been a custody officer (0+ / 0-)

            you really don't understand just how dangerous some of these individuals are. They will kill. That is not a risk to take with anyones life, the inmates are people too.

            Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself. - President Harry Truman

            by notrouble on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 08:08:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, I haven't been a control officer (0+ / 0-)

              But even the government admits that over half the people at Guantanamo were totally innocent.

              In any case, this isn't about segregation of prisoners in the process of making the facility safe. The manual is quite clear about this, and I've quoted it elsewhere in these comments. It is about interrogation, and "breaking down" a prisoner to make them talk, or sign a confession, etc.

              The relative dangerousness of any prisoner is not even at issue in this discussion.

              War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

              by Valtin on Mon Jan 26, 2009 at 08:25:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  that is why i wrote 2 diaries to dispel that myth (15+ / 0-)

      these so-called torture lite methods by bush are harming, paining, and killing people in the same manner as brutal physical acts.

      in fact, one prisoner had his arm sockets hanging by a thread due to stress positions --- and he died from torture.

      we just need to inform that torture lite=torture.

      "Water and air, the two essential fluids on which all life depends, have become global garbage cans." -- Jacques Cousteau

      by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:36:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I believe what you are missing is that the (8+ / 0-)

      Geneva Conventions and the War Crimes Act of 1996 both cite torture and inhumane treatment.  While separation may not click with some as torture, it is definitely inhumane.  If you give some thought to what it would be like to be locked in darkness for an extended period of time, you will begin to understand the concern.  Just how disorienting do you think it would be to spend days without light?  How would you judge the passing of time?  How would you judge where to step, what to touch, who to trust?  In time you would be likely to lose all sense of judgment, even down to knowing who you are yourself.  The proverbial marking of days on a calendar or making knotches on a piece of wood each time you were fed, etc., would not exist because you would not be able to see them.  If you give it just a little thought, it is unlikely that you will be as likely to dismiss it.

    •  please read to educate yourself and others (6+ / 0-)

      Bush's Torture Lite=Torture about how waterboarding and stress positions constitute brutal torture when you know the facts of what we are doing and how it has killed prisoners in painful death,including having limbs just about removed from sockets.

      then please read this Bush's Torture Lite=Torture (Pt. 2) about how the cumulative impact, harm and pain from seemingly innocent techniques, such as separation, deprivation, constitutes torture that has killed prisoners.

      "Water and air, the two essential fluids on which all life depends, have become global garbage cans." -- Jacques Cousteau

      by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 02:44:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're showing your ignorance. (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Garrett, Creosote, Valtin, Dauphin, bigchin, cgirard

      I'd like to hear your views on this subject after a week's confinement in the refrigerated/cooler section of a COSTCO--in isolation, nude, no blankie or mattress, in alternating prolonged stress positions, while being hosed down periodically with cold water.  Try expanding that experience from a week to months or even years.  

      I'd allow one exception to the isolation aspect, you could share the room with your buddy, Lard-ass Limbaugh.  

    •  Hey buddy, your "jerk" is showing. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Valtin

      "History is a tragedy, not a melodrama." - I.F.Stone

      by bigchin on Sun Jan 25, 2009 at 07:38:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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