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View Diary: Ralph's Gift (380 comments)

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  •  DEMS NEED TO FORCE THE ABORTION ISSUE (none)
    The Christians conservatives put Bush over the top using gays/abortion.  The dmes should force the repubs to bring a bill to the floor to execute women who have abortions.  Reubs should not get a free ride on this.  They talk about abortion/gays to bring out the vote, but do nothing to back it up.  If the congressional dems everyday ask where the abortion bill is, then the people in the red states would take notice and wonder why the repubs are not passing their bills.  Dems need to ride repubs hard on this.  Don't let them get away with using the gay/abortion issue w/o having to do anything about it.  Or else in 4 years when the race is close, they will do the same thing, and you will lose again.
    •  THIS IS A TOP PRIORITY (3.00)
      This is not something the Democrats should even THINK of filibustering in the Senate. We need a FLOOR DEBATE and roll-call vote that officially makes abortion MURDER.

      Better yet, a Constitutional Amendment.

      •  double post (none)
        Amend the bill to include all "in vitro" as being murder - - rather like Charlie Rangel's call for a draft.

        Have Senator Reid introduce a bill to outlaw all abortion and in vitro fertilization as one package deal. If A is wrong, so is B.

        •  Come The Evolution! (none)
          At the same time lets force the creationism issue.  Introduce a bill requiring the schools to give it equal time.  In addition to the outrage it would cause in the scientific community, these kinds of moves would drive the wedge between Ralph and Rudy even deeper.  We should make every effort to exploit the schism that exists in the party of Lincoln.
    •  A Senate Resolution/Rider in support of Roe (none)
      Yes, we need to call the Fundamentalist Republican bluff on social issues.  No more whining, no more blaming the democrats; the Republicans need to produce results this time to keep their supporters happy.

      We should force the issue.  A rider offered on every bill regarding abortion.  Let's see who votes which way.  The Senators from Maine will have to decide if they really want to abdicate on this issue.

      •  This is the only way to make the red states (none)
        understand how they are being used.  Everyday Pelosi should be in front of the mikes saying when are the repubs going to vote to execute woman having abortions?  BTW, I heard rumors of Edwards taking over the DNC on CNN.  What do y'all think?
        •  Clinton as DNC head (none)
          Says Josh Marshall, who hopes that Hillary won't run.
          •  Howard Dean (none)
            I want a fighter with integrity to head the DNC.
            •  Those are all bad ideas (none)
              The DNC head should not be a prominent politician.  It's a dirty job that involves carrying a lot of water.  The business of the party is to promote others who are actually running for office.  They make the real decisions and you have to speak for them.  You have to put into the record the controversial things that officials standing for election don't want to say, and your reputation gets battered over time.

              None of those people want the job, I can guarantee you that.

              "Things are more like they are now than they have ever been before." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower

              by Trickster on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 08:48:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I doubt it (none)
          Elizabeth was diagnosed with breast cancer on Wednesday.  I doubt he'll be tackling anything so big this year.

          "We're makin' progress. It's hard work. We're workin' hard on freedom. And liberty. Hard work. ... Hard work. . . . um . . . is the light on yet?"

          by DrFrankLives on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 02:24:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  what about the men? (none)
          wack off the balls of all the men who rape and commit incest - same for any man caught making a these poor mislead women pregnant without the sancity of marriage. Excute the women that have the abortion but make sure the men own up to their responsibilty too and off with their heads!
      •  Try it the other way around (none)
        Instead of fighting a delaying action down a  slippery slope, go whole hog for a vote on our worst case scenario.

        Abortion and in vitro linked together as a package deal. See how Snowe and Collins vote on that.

    •  And in vitro fertilization (none)
      If its morally wrong to abort a pregnancy even in cases of rape, why should infertile couple be free to wash down the drain 9 or 19 fertilized eggs jsut so a 40 someting couple can have 1 live baby?

      If abortion is to be illegal, so to should ALL in-vitro fertilization be illegal.

      (Now, try and get a majority of Americans to support that!)

      •  I have always believed.. (none)
        ...that forcing an argument to its illogical extreme is a wonderful way of exposing its flaws.
        •  As a Catholic. . . (none)
          I believe abortion is morally wrong. It just isn't the state's G-d D-mn business.

          But flushing dozens of fertilized eggs to allow in vitro bothers me far, far more than letting some poor 17 year old who made a mistake avoid the back alley coathanger abortionist.  

          •  Does the catholic church agree with you? (none)
            They don't even believe in condoms.
            •  Condoms ain't murder. . . (none)
              The priest said, "Please no birth control." He looked at the floor when he said it.

              Then he looked us in the eyes. "But if you must, read about HOW the Pill works."

              There's a difference.

          •  Egg flushing (none)
            I urge you to check out Peter Singer's book "The President of Good and Evil:  Questioning the Ethics of George W. Bush," particularly Chapter 3 on "The Culture of Life" in the first section titled "Life Before Birth."  As he points out there, what you call the "flushing" of fertilized eggs happens millions of times every year in the US.  "They die," he says, "as part of a natural process that has, as far as we know, been going on as long as there have been human beings.  Some scientists estimate that for every embryo that becomes a child, four fertilized eggs fail to make it.  Others think that the ratio is closer to one lost fertilized egg for every child born.  Even on the lower estimate, more than three million embryos die annually in the United States from natural causes." (p. 39)  Then he asks the pertinent question:  "Should we feel that this loss of embryos is a terrible thing, a kind of ongoing holocaust?  If each human embryo is 'something precious to be protected' [as G.W. Bush says and probably congruent with papal pronouncements], then surely that is how we should feel."  At the very least, Singer's discussion illuminates the real complexity of this issue and brings out its political character and structure.
            •  complex, but not contradictory? (none)
              Wouldn't "natural causes" be God's work/judgement, but humans choosing to abort/flush is wrongly & evilly co-opting the work of God.  Only God can judge, especially life & death, that kind of thing?

              Then there's the death penalty which Bush loves...

            •  I dunno about that logic (none)
              Fertilized eggs and/or embryos are often spontaneously aborted.... so, induced abortion is therefore okay.  People who have been born often die of natural causes.  By the logic above, it would also be okay to kill them.

              Or did I miss something?

        •  But... (none)
          Do you think that people would actually see that? I would be inclined to think that many people would not see the flaws and only see the proposals.
      •  Declaring a fertilized egg (none)
        a person is the only path that the anti-abortion folks will accept. Otherwise, state courts will be free to find their own way to a Roe v Wade decision under state consitutions even if the Suprme Court overrules it under the federal.
        •  Heh Heh! (none)
          Okay dude, explain exactly HOW birth control pills work. My priest did when my wife and I were engaged.

          (If you are going to use birth control, find another way, he said.)

          Okay, one package bill.

          No abortion but that also means no in vitro and no birth control pills. I mean we need to be morally consistent, corect?

          •  That is a good idea. (none)
            One of 2 things will happen.  They pass a bill, they get crushed the next election.  They don't pass it and the christians stay home-they get crushed the next election.  its a win-win proposition.
          •  The Morning After pill (none)
            We should press on this big time.  We can put Santorum in our gunsights on this one.
            •  Its the inconsistency. . . (none)
              like crack cocaine vesus powder.

              Rich white kid with powder? Lets look at treatment options;

              Poor black kid with crack? Lock 'em up!

              = = =

              Let Harry Reid do it. He's a Mormon!

              He says:

              "I have long believed abortion and similiar issues were not the government's business even though (like many Catholics) I personally believe such things are immoral. But as Ralph Reed tells us, America has spokeN.

              Therefore I offer this constitutional amendment to define life as beginning at conception and therefore ALL abortion, morning after pills, stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, etc. . . shall become illegal. Nationwide.

              Susan Snowe? Where do you stand?

               

              •  Susan Collins/Olympia Snowe (none)
                Both need to stand and fight for reproducive freedom--or get out of the way!
              •  bluespace is right (none)
                we really really need our dems to do this. force these rethugs out inot the light. it's win-win for us, plus the political whirlwind it will create will drowned out whatever message the rethugs were planning on getting out.

                trouble is, will our "leadership" listen?

                No member of our generation who wasn't a Communist or a dropout in the thirties is worth a damn. Lyndon B. Johnson

                by maskling11 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:27:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Moral consistency (none)
            Yep, morally consistent, i.e.,

            Birth control (including condoms) is evil and should be outlawed. Therefore more people will die from AIDS.

            Abortion is evil and should be outlawed. Therefore more women overseas in developing countries will lose funding for family planning, hence will die prematurely from lack of hospital care during childbirth.

            This is the Catholic idea of moral consistency.

            •  Thaxter, learn jujitsu (none)
              Screaming at them has failed.

              Besides, no one is morally perfect. Not even Democrats.

              Punish powder the same as crack. No abortion and no birth control pills and no in vitro. All or nothing.

              Otherwise, the Red State types will cherry pick and outlaw abortions for poor kids while rich suburban-ites quietly swallow morning after pills.

        •  FORCE THE ISSUE (4.00)
          Paul Begala did the other day on Crossfire, and the republican had nothing to say.  He looked shocked.  Let the reds see that they have been sold a false set of goods.
          •  Did he really? (none)
            I usually watch Crossfire, but I've been too depressed to watch any news or political shows since Tuesday.  I don't even turn on the TV, for fear of accidentally catching a glimpse of the smirking chimp.

            What exactly did Begala say on Crossfire?

            "We share half our genes with the banana. This is a fact more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." - Robert Mays

            by randym77 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:47:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I thought I was the only one who felt this way!!! (4.00)
        If its morally wrong to abort a pregnancy even in cases of rape, why should infertile couple be free to wash down the drain 9 or 19 fertilized eggs jsut so a 40 someting couple can have 1 live baby?
        If abortion is to be illegal, so to should ALL in-vitro fertilization be illegal.

        (Now, try and get a majority of Americans to support that!)

        Abso-EFFIN-loutely. If a women gets preggers, even during rape or incest and  conceives......one can intrepret that as God's will. Since God was in this election, shouldn't HIS will be done?

        Well the converse is that if you CAN'T have a baby by NATURAL means, that is ALSO God's will.

        If they wanna play this game, we should give it back to them, WITH INTEREST!

        No abortion, no in-vitro, no fertility drugs.....

        Since in-vitro produces stem cells.....and reserach on them is against "the culture of life", the usual method of destroying them (incenerating them) does the same....the answer is produce no more stem cells!

        LOL.....since the public allowed this rabble to choose w/o examinig the whole story....perhaps they will go along qietly w/ this scenerio?!

        •  no viagra (none)
          it is not god's will...no pharmaceuticals. if g*d doesn't provide it in a natural or herbal form, then it is not g*d's will. Shut down all the pharmaceutical companies. No more prescriptions. no more over the counter medications.

          what do you say to the last republican who votes kerry instead of bush so as not to make another mistake

          by demnomore on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:04:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  and the Pill (none)
        The pill works by preventing a fertilized egg from implanting.  Especially the low-dose pills commonly used today.

        So oral contraceptives should also be banned.  Hey, Pat Buchanan wants to ban all forms of birth control, in order to increase the base of taxpayers.  Have at it.    

        "We share half our genes with the banana. This is a fact more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." - Robert Mays

        by randym77 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:44:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Life at conception hooey (none)
        The problem with the whole abortion/embryo issue is that the democratic candidate claimed to believe that life begins at conception. Personally, as a moderate, non-religious, democrat-voting independent, I find this a bit of a slap in the face. I have no problem with a religious candidate, but face it, the idea that life begins with conception is an extremist view. Even I had trouble with Kerry's stance on this.

        If democrats are truly going to sell themselves as the party of science, they have to be willing to shun superstition. Otherwise you won't convince anyone.

    •  Here Here! I agree Let's have the debate (4.00)
      This is the way to go. Let's have the debate.  People generally agree with Bill clinton on this Abortions should be "legal safe and rare!"

      I am a democrat that is in favor of some restrictions like Inez Tanenbaum of SC who was running or congress.

      Let's back some parental notification with exception or cases of incest or rape. Partial birth ban with exceptions for the health of the mother; should be brought to the floor of the congress and passed immediately.   But watch the GOP does not want to loose their whipping stick. They will not pass sensible abortion laws; Because if that happens then the public support for them will go away.

      Let's push for sensible legal rights for gays and not marriage.

      We have also got to take the values issue to the people.  I know 99% of Americans do not know that Bush and congress passed a law that took away the child credit from people making less than $11000 a year.  The Bush administration has been attacking the poor for 4 years now and we have got to say that this is immoral.

      Many of the poor in the red states do not know how this administration is screwing them. We must be seen as defending the poor not trying to provide handouts to welfare cheats. The poor have no lobby and no 527 or political PAC. And Like Jesse Jackson said years ago the poor are actually work everyday.

      We have to also work to mobilize the poor.  My sister had gone 3 years without a job under this administration and her evangelical church convinced her to vote for Bush because of gay marriage.

      •  It is moral to support fertilty clinics (none)
        Our values are to support fertility clinics for those who want to have children.  

        We should make sure that fertility clinics are not regulated by the Federal Government. We need to support legislation that would ensure that parents, not the government, make the decisions regarding in-vitro fertilization and the use of embryos.

        The women in the Philly suburbs will go for it; Santorum will not.  He's up for re-election.  Bye-bye, Santorum.

      •  Um... (none)
        Either you totally missed the point or I did not understand your post at all.  The idea here is not to compromise but to give them exactly what they want, in spades!  Because they really don't want what they say they want and the choice of supporting it or fighting it is a lose/lose proposition for them.
        •  Must use wedge issues in practical way (none)
          Steve, I got your point--as well as that of everyone else here.  Yes, your idea, as is, is good fun to think about and to blow off a little steam here.  

          But I'm talking about bringing up something in real life in the Senate that will make us look moderate and them like the true radicals that they are.  We can't be the wild-eyed bomb throwers in the Senate.  Just which Democratic Senator is going to introduce a constitutional amendment to ban in-vitro fertilzation?  Never going to happen.  Let Begala take this take-no-prisoners tack in the media--and we can all follow suit as a debating tactic.

          But let's actually craft some votes in Congress to make the radicals declare and the Maine Senators take a stand.  Let's craft our own cultural wedge issues to split Ahnold and Rudy, and their followers, away from the Fundamentalist Republicans.  That's how they won the South; that's how will secure the Northeast (no more RINOs) and Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona in the West.

    •  Evangelists are power-hungry now (none)
      I think the simple-minded political analysis of saying the election was decided on values is fabulous for us. It publicizes the right's hypocracy on religious "values." They couldn't care less about religious people and we all know that.

      The oligarchy is resisting the idea that abortion will be outlawed. They don't want it outlawed but are under heavy pressure from the evangelists. They know if abortion is outlawed they are done for. They'll fight it. I just sampled CNN for a minute and Wolf Blitzer was reporting that Bush's top issue was "Stong Leader" not "Religious values." They are trying to influence the media to stop reporting the values issue mandate.

      Just look at the outrage over what Sen. Spector said today. http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/52004a.asp

      •  pogrom in the Senate (none)
        If (and it's not that far-fetched) Arlen Specter gets knocked down as chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee because of opposition from the Christian right, we should all be yelling at the top of our lungs about a "pogrom in the Senate".  Or that it seems as though certain committee chairmanships in the GOP-controled Senate are, how does one say, restricted to Christian members.  When Gary Bauer talks about a 'liberal' Republican from Pennsylvania, I think it's pretty clear what 'liberal' really means.

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