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View Diary: Ralph's Gift (380 comments)

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  •  PEOPLE LIKE YOU (2.25)
    are the reason why dems keep on getting crushed.  It is time to call the repubs on their shit.  Either pass a bill to make abortion murder, or shut the fuck up.  Dont let the repubs keep on getting away with the same tired strategy that keep dems from winning red states.
    •  Sad but true (none)

      Otherwise they get to have things both ways. There is a price to be paid for such a strategy, however. Are we prepared to pay it?
      •  What Price? (none)
        If the repubs pass such a bill, they will lose 90% of women in both presidential and congressional levels, and they know that.  They have been in charge of everything for 4 years, but have not done shit.
        •  kalki is right (none)
          why troll rate him? this is political war. we will not win the culture wars if we don't fight them!

          the thugs passed a partial birth abortion bill during bush's last term. it contained no provision for the life and health of the mother, so dems wouldn't sign onto it and it was immediately struck down in the courts because it had no life/health provision.

          this is exactly what the thugs wanted to happen! now they can beat dems and "activist judges" over the head with it and have kept the issue alive! they never wanted that bill to pass!

          turn the goddamned swift boat around and head into the culture war! dems should pass there own PB abortion bill with life/health provisions. add a rider that the rethugs will find unnacceptable - making in vitro illegal, for example. they won't sign!


          No member of our generation who wasn't a Communist or a dropout in the thirties is worth a damn. Lyndon B. Johnson

          by maskling11 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:53:03 PM PST

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          •  they'll just strip the provisions they don't like (none)
            and force the dems once again to the same vote. nope. it would be better to paper the fundamentalist churches with flyers equating abortion and in vitro and accuse the supporters of the latter of being as "unnatural," "murderous," and "defiant of god's will" as supporters of the former.

            We get a lot of advice. We tend to listen when somebody's won something. - Joe Lockhart

            by yankeedoodler on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:30:49 PM PST

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            •  yeah, that's a good one too. (none)
              myself, i wouldn't mind seeing a reasonable PBA ban. it's a rare procedure, usually only performed for life/health reasons.

              No member of our generation who wasn't a Communist or a dropout in the thirties is worth a damn. Lyndon B. Johnson

              by maskling11 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:51:08 PM PST

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        •  This is the essential trick- (none)
          1. Get elected, claiming that you will stop abortion.
          2. Once elected, push through your pro-big business, anti-environment package.
          3. Blame the other guys for stopping your anti-abortion package.
          4. Say, "We need more of a mandate!"
          5. Repeat.

          This will get religious people to vote for you, even while you hurt them, economically.  Cool!

          So they will never do shit about abortion.  They will just talk about it louder and louder.

      •  Price to be paid (none)
        But can it get any worse than it already is?

        If this be treason, make the most of it.

        Republican Fever!: reports from a new world at Principall Navigations.

        by BrooklynRaider on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 02:34:48 PM PST

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      •  I agree, but the sad thing is... (none)
        ...we are just telling the truth about the Republicans while they lie about us. I don't know why so many democrats are afraid to fight for what they claim to believe in, even when truth is in their side.

        I've been caling out the fascist bastards that run this country for five years now. When I tell Americans how many of these right wingers families supported Hitler and tried to have FDR assassinated, they look at me like I'm crazy, then I tell them to read War Is Racket, etc. It's scarey how many Americans don't know anything about fascism. If corporate values are more important than individual values, if they try to get God in government, If democracy is being replaced by an economic system (Capitalism) then it's freakin' fascist! Every Republican I meet that get's political on me, I ask them why they want to destroy America, then explain all of that to them in argument and through Bush's actions. I enjoy pissing them off. Because they are destroying our country and I am going to make damned sure they know it.

        Why the hell would I worry about Osama Bin Laden? George Bush is going to destroy America long before Osama does.

        The right wing SCLM has succeeded in tainting the word fascism to mean conspiracy nut, so we need a new word(s) to describe them. How about the "Corporate Values" community? I mean, they are the ones pushing the, "you're either with us or against us meme." They divided the country on social left wing, right wing values issues, so lets take it a step further and divide into pro-individual vs pro-corporate government. You're either with the people or against them. Use the get government out of marriage as a step as shown by Juan Cole and Kos's post earlier.

        Of course, this should be relatively easy for us, because that dividing line exists. We just need to get out that big liberal highlighter and make sure everyone sees it. Then when they call class warfare, we call it "freedom" warfare. About's the people not being oppressed by Walmart, by HMO's, etc. Why are they against our freedom?


        OK, I haven't started reading Lakoff yet, I'll start this weekend :D Then I'll really know how to frame this argument. ;)

        Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. -Tom Paine

        by Alumbrados on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 02:47:52 PM PST

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        •  what about "debased christians" (none)
          rather than "corporate values community"? just using the word "values" lends cachet.

          "debased christians," "betrayers of christianity," and "idolators of greed" have a more biblical resonance. "rightwing pharisees" maybe?

          yeah, i like "debased christians," because it points to the lack of love and tolerance among this segment of those who claim to believe in jesus. "fundamentalist" and "evangelical" do not clarify where the problem is. there are evangelicals who believe caring for the poor and taking care of the land is as much a part of god's work as anything else and not less important than the issues of abortion and gay marriage. there are also evangelicals who truly believe that forgiveness is inseparable from christianity and that a christian god is capable of forgiving anyone. those who are not able to embrace the love and tolerance part of the doctrine are perverting it. they are the "debased christians."

          We get a lot of advice. We tend to listen when somebody's won something. - Joe Lockhart

          by yankeedoodler on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:49:57 PM PST

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      •  Not Sure There's A Price (none)
        to be paid at all.  The Republicans are hoping they get O'Connor out and let their next judicial nominee do the work of overturning Roe in a "states rights" kind of way, so the resulting shit storm doesn't land on their Congress, and then they can outlaw abortion in all the red states right off and then take the battle to the blues.  If we force the Republican Congress to vote NOW, there are still 5 Supreme Ct votes to declare it unconstitutional, but the "oh, they won't really go there" wing of the Republican party (including my libertarian-leaning neighbor down the street who voted for Bush) will be forced to see their true colors.  Not really a price at all.
    •  A Seprate Resolution re in-vitro (none)
      I absolutley love the idea of forcing the cultrual issues.  But we have to bring up stuff we believe in to keep credibility.

      We should have a Senate Resolution that Reproductive Freedom allows couples to store, discard or donate their embryos to other couples as they see fit.  Make this the law of the land.

      Bring this up and watch the Senators from Maine squirm.  Who would want to vote against something like this?  Who wants to shut down or regulate fertility clinics? Watch Santorum oppose it.  Let's get him on record of being against fertility clinics.  How will that sell in the Philly suburbs?

      I just love this idea!  Let's win the values debate.

      •  Credibility? (none)
        To a true pro-lifer there is no difference; an embryo is an embryo.  There's nothing wrong with saying, OK, you won!  You get everything you want! and then letting them decide whether or not to take it.  It's time to back their asses into a corner and make them either piss of their fanatical base or piss of their moderate supporters.

        The issue is their credibility, not ours!  We've already been constructed by the media as having no credibility.  That's one of the reasons they won this time.  The only way to get ours back is to destroy theirs.

        It just sucks that we have to use abortion to do this but I can't think of another option that will have the same effect.  Everything else has many possible shades of gray.

        •  Okay--but who will introduce it in Congress? (none)
          Steve, I see your point--but the only guy who I can see pulling this off in the Senate is Shumer.  He is very smart, tenacious and tough. He could do a Charlie Rangel.

          But will it really win us the PR points we want or will it be seen as a stunt?

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