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View Diary: Stop Outsourcing Our Security! (213 comments)

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  •  Does this mean that you are in favor of (6+ / 0-)

    a draft?

    How else are we going to get personnel to keep fighting all the wars if private contractors are stopped?

    •  Yep, the Draft is just the trick, big equalizer (19+ / 0-)

      but with No, No, repeat No deferments...Private and volunteer armies leads to inbreeding and certain failure

      "Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." Noah Cross - Chinatown

      by LakePipes on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 08:55:14 AM PST

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      •  Yep - agreed (21+ / 0-)

        If a war is justified, you won't have a problem getting people to volunteer - you'd be turning them away.

        War should be difficult to get public support - if people don't want to fight it, then we shouldn't wage it.  Period.  We are a democracy, you know.

        "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

        by La Gitane on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 09:01:35 AM PST

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      •  My father worked to help end the draft (16+ / 0-)

        ...and I have lived to see how ending the draft was a nice idea that went very, very, very wrong.  The same guys in power then kept resurfacing in power positions and knew how to create the backdoor draft.

        As evil as war may be (and I certainly believe it is), making sure we all have a stake in whether or not our country goes to war is a check and balance against wars for monetary or other unnecessary reasons.

        "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

        by MsGrin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 09:10:16 AM PST

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        •  And you can't run to Canada any longer. I don't (7+ / 0-)

          think this would stop unjust wars, but any war that wasn't over in 6 months would face tremendous public scrutiny.

        •  Problem with the draft was the rich could (6+ / 0-)

          thier children into positions in the National Guard where they were safe playing at soldiers. See all the Chicken hawks playing at warmongering today... It cost those jerks nothing back then and costs them nothing today..In fact, they are making money hand over fist as defense contractors and now as mercenary force providers who can avoid pesky things like agreements about behavior.

          Draft absolutely, BUT NO EXEMPTIONs or BOLT HOLES for the children of the rich.

          Yep, you gotta have some skin in the game to see the real value of that game. Actually maybe these AH who attack Kerry and McCain would have learned something about the real costs of war.

          The ending of the Draft was another example of unintended consequences. Without a draft the rich and powerful don't have to lift a finger to protect thier Bush babies and Cheneys and...

          Fear is the Mind Killer

          by boophus on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 11:16:10 AM PST

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          •  That's not a problem with the draft (0+ / 0-)

            that's a feature of war.

            "Competent statisticians will be the front line troops in our war for survival..." George Box, 1976

            by aztecraingod on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 11:20:49 AM PST

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          •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

            And anyone who thinks that IF the draft were reinstated that the children of the very people who would be writing the exact wording of the law would be subject to such a draft... well, I have some oceanside property in New Mexico to show you...

            :: Not so hopeful now ::

            by Rick Aucoin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 11:31:55 AM PST

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            •  I'll take you up on that... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MsGrin

              ... in the year 2246 or whenever global warming really gets going, whichever comes first.  I want a prime lot with a view of both the mountains and the sea.

              Of course, I'm not naive enough to think that the children of the elite uberclass would ever be subject to a draft, just betting that the beaches of New Mexico will be really nice.

            •  Well, if even MORE of the middle class (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Calamity Jean

              were subject to a draft, it would make a HUGE difference in public perception of the worthiness of war.

              Right now, many people buh-lieve that people who join the military have CHOSEN to fight.  The choice, however, was TO NOT STARVE or to get an education or whatever their motive is, and this is the most feasible way to do it for them.  They do what they have to do.  Those who have the means to do those other things without providing service to the country can live in a bubble about who risks their lives to get what many consider to be the basics ones needs in life.

              There are very few of the uber rich, but right now, the uber rich have the middle class snowed.  NOT having a front door draft drives a wedge between working a middle classes - our founding fathers and mothers wanted a MORE PERFECT union.  Let's start with that.  We can improve it from there.

              "Trust me, after taxes, a million dollars is not a lot of money." --Michael Steele

              by MsGrin on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 02:45:47 PM PST

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        •  or some kind of service... (6+ / 0-)

          there are still us pacifist types out here...
          my dad was a conscientious objector in WWII and did alternative service that was set up between the army and the church of the brethren.  
          some worked on forest fires, some in army mental hospitals, etc.  they were spit on and hounded, but they stuck to their beliefs.  this is a photo of him playing the cello in a barrack waiting his orders:
          http://www.pbs.org/...

          I died for Joe Lieberman's sins.

          by stagemom on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 11:28:14 AM PST

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        •  Switzerland, a Neutral Country, Has a Draft (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior, MsGrin

          All males are required to get training with the Swiss Army (although they do make some exceptions for those mentally or physicially unfit).  They all sleep with a Swiss Army-issue rifle in the house.

          And they remain neutral, but able to defend their borders in the event of attack.

          "None are more enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

          by Sarea on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 12:53:52 PM PST

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      •  My personal experience says stay all volunteer. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly, kurt, Sarea, cameoanne, dmw97

        Was in during the late 80's with NCO's from the Vietnam era who talked about the differences between the 70's and 80's. Many felt that when it went all volunteer, morale and professionalism improved. Those who wanted to serve may have bitched about military life as all soldiers have done, but at least most of the volunteers were happy to be there. With the draft you ended up with a lot of unhappy draftees who couldn't care less about anything but getting out. Not the kind of person you want to depend on when the shooting starts.

        One other thing several NCO's noted was the improvements in professionalism when drug testing became mandatory.

        "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

        by Boisepoet on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 10:15:09 AM PST

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        •  Professionalism isn't the only factor. (4+ / 0-)

          If all we wanted was the best army we would pay 3 times as much and contract the work out. We'd also set up little micro-wars every generation so our boys can stay in shooting practice . . . off shore, of course. Finally, we'd figure out some way to justify a perpetual war - one that would never have to stop for the inconvenience of "victory", but wouldn't threaten our home infrastructure. Then we could turn the nation's industry into a Democracy machine like it was in '44 . . .

          oh, wait a minute . . .

          Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell - Edward Abbey

          by ZAP210 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 10:30:15 AM PST

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          •  Wellllll..... (0+ / 0-)

            If you think the only options are crappy draftees who don't want to be there, or a perpetual war machine....put down the two sided coin and pick up some 10 sided dice.

            "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

            by Boisepoet on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 01:27:17 PM PST

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            •  blush :) (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Boisepoet, cameoanne

              Did I say that?

              I think I did. Touche.

              Really I support the draft because I saw too many people aged 14-99 (even libruls) clamoring for war in '02.

              I think crappy draftees who don't want to be there will do just fine fighting for a cause the nation believes in. I think a professional army attracts more conservative, authoritarian types than dirty fucking hippies. I think those people fight better, but I also trust that many have an agenda as to when, where and why we fight. And I think the generals have more say than they ought to.

              peace

              Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell - Edward Abbey

              by ZAP210 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 02:41:32 PM PST

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              •  I was pissed at the use of patriotism, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ZAP210

                (real patriotism, not Faux News patriotism) to sell the nation on war with Iraq. I was especially enraged at all the chickenhawks of a certain religion who were cheering on the war, but admitted they never served because they 'had to go on a mission' instead. I sometimes thought...if only they could draft your ass, we'll see if you are a true patriot, or a piss-your-pants chickenhawk.

                BUT, I realize that for every one of those assholes that the draft would satisfyingly sweep up, it would take someone like my oldest son, who is far more the artist than I could ever hope to be, and whose gentle soul would be wasted in a war. He doesn't have that desire or instinct, and a volunteer force protects him and others who will find other ways to contribute to the good of society besides hoisting a weapon.

                Let those who want to and who can serve in this capacity, do so.

                Now...if we could only have a military equivalent that focused on civic projects.

                "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

                by Boisepoet on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 04:02:10 PM PST

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            •  The draftees in Vietnam were not bad (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              aliasalias, Boisepoet

              For the most part, they acquitted themselves quite well, fought well, and took a lot of casualties.  I know because I served with them as an NCO in Vietnam.

              Is 11 dimension chess really just magical thinking?

              by Zinman on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 04:39:31 PM PST

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        •  ... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sarea, Boisepoet, elwior, cameoanne, dmw97

          We are supposedly a government of the people, so to to be responsible for what our government does we all need to serve. But to act responsibly while we serve, people need to believe in the reasons why they are there. We'll always need professional soldiers to teach the skills and hold discipline but we also need legitimate reasons for the people to go to war along with them. We need to make serving our country a matter of pride and responsibility for everyone.  

          •  Which is one reason I have despised both Bush's (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rightiswrong, kurt, cameoanne

            use of the military. Bush I sent the military into the middle of the Somalian civil war without a clear mission, and 'w' invaded a nation without provocation. Both were not in America's interest or for her protection. Almost enough to destroy the desire to serve in the armed forces, period.

            "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

            by Boisepoet on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 01:20:50 PM PST

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    •  I am in favor of not being there at all (15+ / 0-)

      but a draft would be more fair than what we are doing to our military, the Iraqi people, and our budget.

      Repubs - the people in power are not secretly plotting against you. They don't need to. They already beat you in public. (Bill Maher)

      by Sychotic1 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 09:10:53 AM PST

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    •  In this economy? (8+ / 0-)

      I doubt recruitment is a problem.

      A friend of mine in the Army told me they have had more people trying to get in than they have room for.

      ---
      Toyota: Proof US Union Labor Still Does it Better

      by VelvetElvis on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 09:11:27 AM PST

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    •  Why do you assume that the reason we hire Xe (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Calamity Jean

      is 'lack of personnel'?  Republicans hate public anything, and attempt to privatize anything and everything they can.  I suspect this was a 'privatization experiment' rather than an issue of 'not enough soldiers'.  And I would imagine Prince dropped some political donations in the right coffers to ensure ever more contracts.

      I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken. - Oliver Cromwell

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 at 06:22:35 PM PST

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