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View Diary: The Iraq Election: Defining Success (489 comments)

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  •  There is an answer to your question! (none)
    It is based in the logic that a democracy only works when all or most of the potential governed agree to peacefully compromise their real goals in favor of a peaceful society.  You cannot bring about, hold, or otherwise make happen a meaningful democratic process when there is no history and no realistic signs that large groups of the potentially governable will abide by this premise.

    Why the heck are so few Amereicans able to see this??? Geez!  Has anyone living in reality seen any sign that large groups of the potnetially governable in Irawq have made this compromise????????????????

    Political censorship is the root of all evil! It is the antithesis to a functional democracy!!

    by truthbetold on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:59:10 AM PST

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    •  I guess you didn't get what I meant to say (none)
      "It is based in the logic that a democracy only works when all or most of the potential governed agree to peacefully compromise their real goals in favor of a peaceful society."

      Where did I say that I doubt that statement? But it's a natural thing that the Iraqis themselves will have to fight among themselves as long as the decide all by themselves to peacefully compromise on their own.

      No army in the world can "protect" the Iraqi population from themselves and their own struggles.  

      I don't understand what you read into my comment. It's way too early to ask the question if the election have been a "success". How do you define "success" in this context?

      Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

      by mimi on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 10:22:59 AM PST

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      •  There can be no excuse for our actions (none)
        I don't understand what you read into my comment.

        I feel certain that without the necessary compromises being made BEFOREHAND by the power parties in a country to peacefully abide by election results, that forcing a sham election on people is the same as talking to them in a foreign langauge.  Nothing logical can come as result of it.  The deaths we caused by being there both to Iraqis and to our troops cannot be justified by this sham ending, so there is no definition of success.  History and logic guarantee this election won't provide anything close to democracy!! We blew it going down this sham route.  

        Now to answer you specific question.  When the author of this thread asked his question, I assume he is being facetious to begin with because there can be no success in Iraq for America due to the faulty path we have followed.

        Political censorship is the root of all evil! It is the antithesis to a functional democracy!!

        by truthbetold on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 11:44:11 AM PST

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        •  well, I understand now what you mean (none)
          "History and logic guarantee this election won't provide anything close to democracy!!"

          Why are you so sure? Make examples, why you believe it with such a certainty. Of course the elections can't provide "Democracy" by itself and alone, but without elections you can't even start to try to build and implement a democratic system.

          So, actually I think it might be the opposite. May be the people that got voted into power today are actually the most legitimate representatives that Iraq ever had so far.  

          And I don't excuse anything about the way Bush "talked in and tricked out the US population" to agree with his war plans, nor do I excuse the extreme recklessness of how they went about it. More so, I will never excuse all the Congressmen, who never voiced critical opposition to the new Bush war doctrines, nor opposed his dangerously reckless expressions of his foreign policies ideas. Nor do I excuse the TV broadcasters for functioning as enablers for Bush's war against terror propaganda as excuse for anything Bush wanted to shove down the US population's throat.

          I am happy because apparently Iraqi women turned out to vote in high numbers. Common sense needs of "making a living" made those women to defy violence by insurgents despite their fears.

          I am just happy: this is the reason.

          Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

          by mimi on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:29:40 PM PST

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          •  Consequences matter (none)
            Why are you so sure? Make examples, why you believe it with such a certainty.

            There are great historical reasons why only "strongmen" (like Saddam) have been able to  keep this artificial country created by the British together.  We have done nothing to deal with those historical issues, and our head in the sand approach, a sham election, cannot work as if there was no history to this situation.  It does not work like that on planet earth.  Look at the histories of India/Pakistan, and Yugoslavia as soon as the yoke of strongmen fell.

            I always told my kids when they were growing up that to make mistakes is human, but you have to not make the fatal ones!  If Bush was only sending musicians to Iraq to try and teach them to enjoy western music, and if the only negative consequences would be that the musicains would come home with bad feelings if they failed, that is an okay mistake in judgement to make.  However sending in US troops for reasons that turned out to be falsified, and having at least 1400 of them killed along with many more thousands of Iraqis cannot be ever thought of as a success whether a sham election allows us to leave now or we are forced out in several more years, which is inevitable as I believe history shows!.  

            Finally, talking about Iraqi women! Think of all those Iraqi woman mothers of the thousands we have killed that must hate us now with such a passion I shudder to think of it!  Can Democracy really take root in a country that has faced such atrocities just because one of the perpetrators of some of these atrocies says to have an election?  What about the real underlying basic problems between the religious groups in this country.  Just what have we done to realistically try and deal with these root causes.  Name me one thing?

            Political censorship is the root of all evil! It is the antithesis to a functional democracy!!

            by truthbetold on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:58:48 PM PST

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            •  Oh, of course I agree with almost all points you (none)
              made, but on the following note I am not that pessimistic.

              "Can Democracy really take root in a country that has faced such atrocities just because one of the perpetrators of some of these atrocies says to have an election?  What about the real underlying basic problems between the religious groups in this country.  Just what have we done to realistically try and deal with these root causes.  Name me one thing?"

              No, I can't name and don't want to name one thing. There is not one thing I could name.

              But I don't think it is "our" problems to try and deal with the root problems of Iraq, as long as they are related to ethnic or religious conflicts among Iraqi population groups or caused through imperial policies decades ago. We can't change anything about that today.

              I am very sure that the Iraqi want to solve their root problems by themselves first, before they want them to get resolved by others. If their root problems were caused by (imperialist) economic reasons related to global trade and global "corporate fascism" (uuh, I can't believe I took over this expression), it would be different. But hey, I don't know everything about their "root problems" and what they perceive their "root problems" is not clear to me at all.

              But the reaction of the Iraqi wanting to build their democratic system by themselves is a basic human reaction of people everywhere in the world. Have you ever seen any country, which didn't want "the Ami" to leave? Because they felt "ashamed" for "needing help" from the Americans and because they felt ripped off their "dignity" and appalled that the US "intervened in their national affairs"? I think it would be nice, if the Americans could not only understand those reactions, but also would respect them more.

              And what you say about the Iraqi mothers, who have lost kids and family members due to the US war invasion, think about all the German mothers after WWII. Don't you think they could have "hated the Americans, because they killed their sons, who were soldiers in WWII"?

              Well, it didn't happen. I haven't heard much about "hating the Americans" after WWII, because they have killed thousands of German mother's sons during the war. I have heard much more about "hating Americans" because of their "cultural and economical imperialism" (hmm, I don't know if this is the right term) in our times than I heard about hating American for being defeated and killed during the atrocities of combat warfare.

              There is a conscience about who has the true moral justification to fight in a war among the population. Even if that is never expressed openly, people know, who has good intentions and who has not. It was absolutely clear for Germans to accept that the deaths caused by Americans killing their sons in combat, were unavoidable, considering that the Germans were the first aggressors, oppressors and mass murderers.  

              And I am pretty sure, an Iraqi mother makes similar comparisons, and my hope is that in the end they find the American troops less "murderous" than the "insurgent troops" or "Saddam's Bathist henchmen". They know who had more humane and civil intentions. So, even if their sons might have been caught in the middle of the mess and got killed, you don't start hating the Americans automatically. Now, let's say, I hope that being the case, but I really don't know it.

              For example the Russians were not hated by the Germans for the deaths they caused in combat against the German soldiers, they were hated because they raped women after victory and destroyed senselessly property after having defeated the Germans.

              So, don't worry about Iraqi mothers hating Americans for a long time. I doubt it somehow.  The  more of a calm reconstruction of the country is going on and the earlier that happens the less they are hated.

              Actually I think the solution would be to really have international troops to help the Iraqi to fight their terrorists, if they needed and wanted it.

              It would be time for Europeans and the UN to show some teeth and get involved.

              Though Bush hasn't deserved to be helped. But that might not really be of any relevance.

              Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

              by mimi on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:39:23 PM PST

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