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How?  Or does he have to?

I may have to vote for this man.

Can you please motivate me?  All I can think about is that Oliver North is still on the loose.

Maybe it shouldn't be the Kerry supporters that try...

Originally posted to pyrrho on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:04 AM PST.

Poll

Kerry and Non-Supporters

23%17 votes
15%11 votes
8%6 votes
5%4 votes
7%5 votes
39%28 votes

| 71 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  what a downer (none)
    I'm not a Deaniac but I like Dean, I like Clark, I'm open to Edwards.

    I have seen the light that it does matter which party wins (not that I ever voted differently), but still... I can't help but remember my philosophical roots, I'm being asked to vote, not place a bet, not guess who someone else likes, not defer to someone that doesn't look as closely as I or compare these people to my values...

    I like real people... oh, we're all real, that's right, and so the issue is flaws... do you have them, are they the kind that you dare let see the light of day?  

    People that have removed every objectionable part... well, they do this to survive if they are large scale politicians, but to me that breed formlessness.

  •  I forgot none of the above. (none)
    oops.
  •  If Kerry gets the nomination, he deserves support (2.33)
    Many Deaniac's seem to be playing the same game as Naderites 4 years ago, requiring Kerry to do something to "earn" their support.  It's BS.  

    If John Kerry gets the nomination then he deserves every Democrat's support, and he should get the support of anyone who wants GW Bush removed from office.

    The last thing that Kerry should have to be worried about is some kind of litmus test from Dean supporters.  And he should not be required to even deal with any such BS.  

    •  what about Clark Supporters? (none)
      what about Kucinich Supporters.

      What about people that are not Democrats but were willing to vote for, hell, Joementum Lieberman?

      He doesn't have to do anything.  He didn't have to run for president.

      He's going after some votes, if those are not some, I would only wonder what his strategy was, not require a moral justification of his decision.

      btw, this diary is just a place to say exactly what you did do.  I don't have to vote, do I?  I don't really owe Kerry my vote just like he doesn't owe me any proof of his support and ability.  Winner just win!

      I'm not thrilled to vote for Kerry, but I probably will.  It doesn't really matter in my case anyway as I'm in a safe "fuck off we don't care" state.  

      •  Priority 1 is defeating Bush (3.50)
        Look, I'm an Iowan who Caucused for Wesley Clark (one of two Iowa precincts where Clark was viable) and would have gone to Dean as a second choice if Clark had not been viable.  Dean is actually the only candidate I've contributed money to--I'm holding off donating any more until the nominee is decided.

        It's absolutely vital to defeat Bush in November--I think that most of the progressive accomplishments of the last century are at stake, and nitpicking at Kerry by Dean, Lieberman, or Kucinich supporters is going to be very very counterproductive to the main objective--ridding this country of the Bush plague.

        We all need to keep our eye on the ball.  

      •  Help beat Bush (none)
        You do not own him your vote, but you have a choice between helping beating Bush or helping him be reelected, and this whoever the nominee is.  However, if you think Bush is OK, please be my guest.

        In addition, here is a good presentation forewarded to me by a Dean supporter this morning, who ask people to call on Nader not to run.  Many of you probably have seen it, but for the others

        http://www.turtlerock.com/RalphDontRun/

    •  God, give it time (none)
      People are bitter now, but, well (a) it isn't over yet; and (b) when they realize what the alternative is, most of them will come around. So just relax.

      If this were Dec 8 1941, Bush would be gearing up to invade Spain.

      by Doug in SF on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:17:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  do you agree no concession are in order (none)
        shouldn't Kerry do something, should he be the nominee, to coopt support, such as announce cabinet posts or VP posts if not of those candidates, then of people designed to appeal to those constituencies?  

        I honestly don't know myself.

    •  Ahh, the voice of the party. (3.50)
      And once again we are faced with a least of all evils selection?

      Did we not prove already that when forced to choose between two evils, most choose to just stay home?

      "Vote for us because you have no choice" is not representative democracy, it's extortion.

      •  a declining empire (4.00)
        has no alternative to war
      •  Least of all evils selection? (none)
        Alt2War:  What are you smoking dude?  On what issues are Dean and Kerry so far apart on that it would break the deal for you?  Especially when doing so helps ensure another 4 years of Bush, which also ensures a continued rightwing assault on the progressive accomplishments of the last 100 years.  Let alone the additional wars the guy will probably get us into along with the continued fraying of our international alliances.

        My goodness.  

        •  what do you like about him (none)
          I've always been a bit turned off by the Kerry's, possibly unfairly.

          What is good about them.  I mean him.

          •  Kerry's a longtime Democrat and he's NOT BUSH!!! (none)
            What is good about them.  I mean him.

            What's good about him is that he's not Bush.  Kerry's a longtime Democrat with a longtime liberal Democratic record.  At worst, he'll be a Clinton and at least keep the Barbarians from storming the Gates, as has happened under Bush.    

            •  I said I'd vote for him (none)
              but I hope there is more than that.

              Hey... you're using reverse psychology, I'm about to come up with a better answer than that myself!!!

              :)

              •  Kerry is at best my 3rd choice (none)
                Pyrro:  Kerry is at best my 3rd choice of the Dems running.  But I will have absolutely no problem rallying behind him for the fall campaign.  Sorry, after 3 plus years of Bush all that is required to secure my money, time, and vote in November is the Democratic nomination.

                I'm easy.  I think Lieberman is preferable to Bush, and would enthusiastically support Lieberman if he got the nomination.

                Hell, in 2000 I was a Bradley supporter before becoming a Gore voter in the fall, so maybe I'm used to not getting myself too attached to any candidate before the nominee is named.

                This isn't Gerald Ford in 1976 or even GHW BUsh in 1988 we're running against.  This Bush REALLY DOES threaten pretty much ALL the significant progressive accomplishments of the last 100 years.  For Democrats now to abandon the nominee because of petty infighting is a slap in the face to the Democrats who often fought and died for the society we have today.  

                •  let me say simply (none)
                  I totally agree.

                  The silver lining of Bush is "look... we really are powerfull enough to destroy the whole world and ourselves... wow, that's power.  To bad we won't be here to enjoy it."

                  Seriously, the world is being destabalized.  We could be setting up centuries of conflict that could be avoided.

            •  Honestly (none)
              we would get much better Judges, virtually the same ones any Democrat would come up with since the candidates for the court come from the knowledge of party regulars more than just the President or even the President's staff.
            •  That won't work. (none)
              The "He's not Bush" is not inspiring.  It's not convincing.  It's not going to get people to work as true believers.  It is not going to get people out of bed early on election day, and it is not going to win us this election.

              We are not here for kerry, kerry is here for us.  If Kerry cannot deliver a convincing reason to work for him, I will not.

              If Kerry cannot give me a compelling reason to vote for him, I will hold my nose and do so anyhow.  But if it's cold, or i have the sniffles, or it's raining, I might just sleep in.  And so will a lot of the D party base.

              There has to be more than a smug sence of entitlement.  

              •  Although I also just aggreed with patm (none)
                I have to say I agree with you too.

                The problem is not you or me, probably, but a lot of people who think Bush is just bad like any politician, and don't find fear of him inspiring of action.

        •  Entitlement (3.50)
          If the D party once again goes to an election ignoring it's base, with a belief that it is entitled to all votes left of center, it will once again be dissapointed with it's turnout.

          We have seen legislation pass that directly erodes the left's organization while strengthening the right's.

          We have seen the Democrats refusing to stand up as the opposition party when we needed them the most.

          Before this year, I was not a Democrat.  I was an Independent Liberal.  Howard Dean showed the courage and honesty I desired to see in an American President.  His conviction and determination to speak the bitter truth, no matter how difficult or dangerous, is what drove me to register as a Democrat.

          Howard Dean Earned that.

          Now don't anybody tell me that Kerry, who votes not his concience, but for his calculated interest, Diserves my vote.

          Don't tell me he is entitled to it.

          He's not.

          And dont expect the rest of the D party base to roll over and puch D like good little sheeple.  Thats not who we are.  If the D party continues to ignore it's base, it's base will continue to ignore it.

          •  Well Said (none)
            If only some of the bureacratic Party bean-counters would fucking realize this.

            This time around, the revolution will not be televised.

            by Demise on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:48:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dean's been rejected by VOTERS not bean-counters (none)
              If only some of the bureacratic Party bean-counters would fucking realize this.

              It hasn't been freaking bean-counters that have torpedoed Dean, Dean's the guy who had the money and organizational advantage at the start of this thing, mainstream Democratic voters have rejected him (so far).

              Dean isn't God, and shouldn't be treated as such.  A President Kerry or even a President Lieberman is a hell of a lot closer to where a President Dean would be at than GW Bush.

              Many Dean supporters apparently have no sense of history.  It was a hell of a struggle over the last 100 years on Civil Rights, Workers rights, social security, medicare--you name it.

              To piss everything away by giving Bush another 4 years is a slap in the face to our elders and represents an absolutely petty and solipsistic inability to see the big picture.

              •  thing is (none)
                turnout in this country is terrible.  Horrendous.

                If you can't assume people will even vote, you can't assume they'll vote for you even if you know they hate the other guy more.

                Nevermind... Look!  it's Brittany!

              •  won't work (none)
                the "he aint bush" argument will not work far outside of the realm of Daily Kos and it's like.
              •  Listen.. (none)
                I'm not talking specifically about this race, I am talking about the Democratic Party in general- they have abandoned their base, they have become more the party of the board room as oppose to the party of the working man and they have been soft while the opposition has been playing hardball.

                I was not reffering to voters as "bean counters" I was talking about Democratic Party leadership.

                By you taking my comments out of context and launching into an attack on Dean's "supporters sense of history" is way the Hell off base and I accept your appology. /wink

                This time around, the revolution will not be televised.

                by Demise on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 05:07:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  There's no reason to give this to Kerry yet (none)
                You don't need to try convince the traditional Dem to vote for whoever ends up the nominee. They are already turning out for the traditional Dem candidate Kerry. But that's not going to cut it in the general. You have to convince the disenchanted/independent voters who have come to the party because of Dean. They don't have to vote Democratic. I think it's got to easier to get the Dems to join independents with Dean than the other way around.
                That said, I'll be looking for Kerry talking points IF he becomes the nominee.
    •  No he doesn't... (none)
      He doesn't deserve anything.  This is a democracy, not an aristocracy.  If we don't like what we're given then we can damned well choose not to accept it.  The only reason any non-Kerry supporters will vote for him is just so they can vote against Bush.  

      Feel free to disagree-- it's your right to be wrong!

      by Asak on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 05:23:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I dunno, but William Saletan doesn't think he can (none)
    Saletan used to really like Dean but has cooled on him since Iowa.  But he's still pretty unhappy about Kerry.

    Ted Kennedy's liberal credentials are only one of the reasons he's been warming up crowds for Kerry the past two weeks. The other reason is that Kennedy is twice the barn-burner Kerry ever could be. Kennedy's voice booms. At each stop, he makes well-worn stories sound fresh and ad libs the rest. The shirt hanging out of his belt reflects his boisterous ease. Kerry's stepson is another natural. At the Nashua event, he improvised deliciously witty remarks on Kerry's behalf, treating the crowd to a first-rate Arnold Schwarzenegger impression.

    Kerry can't ad lib to save his life. Sometimes, in small gatherings, when he's late, tired, and punchy, he escapes his script and gives people a glimpse of the human being beneath the senator. There were flashes of that in Nashua. At first, Kerry bounced across the stage and arched back his shoulders, letting his jacket slip off with a smile you'd expect to see from a stripper. But soon enough, he tightened up. As Kennedy entertained the crowd, Kerry sat in the background with his fingers clasped together, sucking his lower lip and patting his hair nervously to make sure it was still in place. Just before Kerry rose to speak, his wife placed both hands on his shoulders, trying to impart strength. Hundreds of fans waved Kerry signs and applauded his every word. He wasn't there to inspire them. They were there to inspire him.

    Physically, Kerry's repertoire is painfully limited. He thrusts his index finger at the audience in an overhead arc again and again, as though launching a projectile. He seems to be trying not to animate his thoughts but to expel them. Above the neck, nothing but his mouth moves. If you showed anyone a video of Kerry with his lips blacked out, they'd never know he was speaking. On television, it often seems as though Kerry is looking at you but not seeing you. In person, you realize he is looking at you but not seeing you. His words are even more stilted, particularly when he ruins a good line by adding prepositional phrases--"in this country ... as a fundamental commitment ... to all our citizens ... regardless of circumstance"--until everyone is silently begging him to stop.

    It's strange that a man who charged into enemy fire should prove so physically inferior, as a politician, to a man whose greatest athletic feat during the Vietnam era was swimming ashore at Chappaquiddick. I couldn't decide whether to laugh or wince as Kennedy, the lifelong legislator, exalted Kerry's "two terms" in Vietnam--then corrected his description, incorrectly, to "two sessions." (Pssst, Senator ... the word is tours.) But as Kerry turns South, it won't be Kennedy who joins him on the campaign trail. It'll be Max Cleland, the former Georgia senator who lost three limbs in Vietnam and then lost his Senate seat in 2002 to a Republican attack on his commitment to national security.

    Kerry hopes Cleland will put Republicans to shame for what they did to Cleland. But as a retail politician, the guy Cleland puts to shame is Kerry. For 15 minutes, Kerry lumbered around the stage in Nashua, poking his finger in the air and otherwise treating the rest of his body as a trunk from which to hang one moving arm. Then the music cranked up, and Cleland started to boogie in his wheelchair, his brow furrowed suggestively, his hips and shoulders gyrating to the beat. The guy with four limbs was using one, while the guy with one limb was using four. It makes you want to scream over the music that the wrong veteran is running for president.

    If only Cleland could be on stage next fall to prop up Kerry in the debates with President Bush. If only Kennedy and Shaheen and all those congressmen could be there, too. But they can't. If you nominate Kerry, you don't get the sales force. You just get him.

    "Weapons of mass destruction including evil chemistry and evil biology are all matters of great concern..." -- John Ashcroft"

    by ChicagoDem on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:26:12 AM PST

    •  Hey, VP Cleland (none)
      would help my mood a lot!!!
    •  The Circular Firing Squad (none)
      Look--I'm all for supporters of other candidates continuing to support those candidates as anti-Kerry's until/if Kerry locks up the nomination.  What's pissing me off is the circular firing squad already forming and the continued infighting among supporters of various candidates over what look to me to be minor issues, compared to the great evil that is Bush.

      If Bush gets another 4 years, the administrative structure of the government will essentially be turned into an arm of big corporations and Bushie campaign contributors, we'll get another 4 years of war war war, and Bush will be able to stack the federal courts with rightwing extremists.

      And Dean and Kucinich and Lieberman supporters continue to look for petty reasons to trash Kerry just because their particular guy didn't get the nod.

      •  I hope you see this diary (none)
        as a call for some unity-motivationals.

        Tell me why Kerry is as good as Dean.  Dean has me believing he could pull of healthcare because it's a moderate proposal as they go.

        Clark has me convinced that we can have the NATO alliane repaired and US moral power restored.  Well, I'm stretching there, but I'll stick with it in spirit (who knows how far he could get on that second part).

        Lieberman has me... oh my god, thinking about Lieberman makes me happy to have Kerry.

        You know, what can Kerry do?

      •  Come again? (none)
        And Dean and Kucinich and Lieberman supporters continue to look for petty reasons to trash Kerry just because their particular guy didn't get the nod.

        Nobody has the nod yet!

        Remember a few weeks (or was it months ago?) how a lot of people were crying foul over the Dean "coronation?"  I believe it was about the time of the Gore endorsement.

        Now are we having the Kerry coronation?

        Save America - Vote Dean!

        by Len on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:56:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Holy Shit (none)
      That's cold man. Cold.

      This time around, the revolution will not be televised.

      by Demise on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:51:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reading Saletan (none)
      reminds me of a brief interview clip I caught on Inside Politics right after Kerry won Iowa.... Judy asked Kerry (oddly with a hint of urgency in her voice... who knew she cared?) how did he plan to campaign in the south, how to win the south?

      (Get ready!)  The response was:

      Max Clelland stands with me and I once gave a speech that Zell Miller told me I could sell anywhere in GA

      and that was it.  In fact, it was so much "it", that  he repeated it again, lest I miss it as a plan, tho I was no longer on my chair and had simply fallen to the floor.  Incredulous at the  incredible.

      As I have said for a week, it's just a movie now...

      Oh and the pundits missed not a beat, they were on him in a heart beat after his winner's speech.  It is not going to be pretty, but then it never is...

      Thank you for the applause. It makes me so happy I could scream.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 08:32:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am concerned about the party (none)
    I don't think Kerry has a very good chance. He will be less appealing than Gore and his pro-war positions will hurt him with the base of the party. They will likely vote for him but not as many will get out and actually work for him as they would for say Dean or Clark. That gives Bush a big advantage if Kerry is the nominee.
  •  Kinda funny.. (4.00)
    pyrrho is still waiting for someone to say one good thing about Kerry...

    This time around, the revolution will not be televised.

    by Demise on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 04:52:35 AM PST

    •  Even more funny... (none)
      While pyrrho seeks some concilation in the possibility of having to possibly vote for John Kerry, a Kerry supporter is posting somewhere else on the website about how Kerry "looks" and taking shots at Dean.

      http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/1/28/65057/7813/4#4

      Gotta hand it to those Kerry supporters, they got the issues down pat.

      This time around, the revolution will not be televised.

      by Demise on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 05:01:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Beating Bush is Priority 1 (none)
        Look, I'm as ticked off at any Kerry supporters going after other candidates as I am at Deaniac's or others going after Kerry.

        I just want us to unite behind whoever gets the nomination.  The Dem nominee MUST defeat Bush.  The consequences for the country of another 4 years of Bush are just too damn dire to get caught up in petty nonsense between the candidate's and their supporters.  

        •  gotta give me somthin (none)
          If you want us all to come together and beat bush, than work your ass off and get me a candidate we can work with.

          We have to play to win, not play not to lose.

          If you put up a "safe bet" candidate that is essentially an Al Gore repeat, and want to run an Al Gore Campaign, and pray not to lose any of Al Gores states, I dont see what you need anyone for.

          I put the D party next to my name by choice, not out of obligation.

        •  And I Agree (none)
          But not everyone will and we have to respect it.

          I thought the Party might get a clue after Nader backdoored them last time around but they haven't- they have remained the Party of mediocrity throughout Bush II's reign.  

          You gotta hand it to the Rethugs- they met a similar fate at the hands of Perot and even if today they aren't sticking to the principles that Perot foisted on them after 1992, they still played ball and won majorities throughout the government.

          This time around, the revolution will not be televised.

          by Demise on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 05:44:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  There's one way: Kerry/Dean (none)
    That's it.  That's the only way I can think of that Kerry can win me, and many others over.  

    Feel free to disagree-- it's your right to be wrong!

    by Asak on Wed Jan 28, 2004 at 05:19:08 AM PST

  •  john kerry can do nothing... (none)
    ... to get my support. he won't get it. it's very simple: he does not represent my beliefs about government and politics. i value accountability, good judgement, and a committment to change the current state of politics in america. kerry offers none of that for me.

    i will vote against bush. but i can't, in good concience, advocate for someone who has no record, bad judgement, and a firm committment to a system that is so clearly broken.

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