Daily Kos

Zogby's Website: Smelling Republicanus. . .

Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 09:50:03 PM PDT

I just checked, and it appears no one has yet posted this nice blog by statistician Colin Shea that is posted on the pollster Zogby's website.

I thought it was worth posting here because it's a delightfully written, and easy to follow, summary of what is turning a lot of facts and figures folks on their heads.

So much is coming down the sewer gates, it's nice to luxuriate over the fact that these swirls in the ooze might lead us back to the source of the muck. Read and Enjoy!

Zogby website article

  [For whole article, read below the fold]

I Smell a Rat

I smell a rat. It has that distinctive and all-too-familiar odor of the species Republicanus floridius. We got a nasty bite from this pest four years ago and never quite recovered. Symptoms of a long-term infection are becoming distressingly apparent.

The first sign of the rat was on election night. The jubilation of early exit polling had given way to rising anxiety as states fell one by one to the Red Tide. It was getting late in the smoky cellar of a Prague sports bar where a crowd of expats had gathered. We had been hoping to go home to bed early, confident of victory. Those hopes had evaporated in a flurry of early precinct reports from Florida and Ohio.

By 3 AM, conversation had died and we were grimly sipping beers and watching as those two key states seemed to be slipping further and further to crimson. Suddenly, a friend who had left two hours earlier rushed in and handed us a printout.

"Zogby's calling it for Kerry." He smacked the sheet decisively. "Definitely. He's got both Florida and Ohio in the Kerry column. Kerry only needs one." Satisfied, we went to bed, confident we would wake with the world a better place. Victory was at hand.

The morning told a different story, of course. No Florida victory for Kerry--Bush had a decisive margin of nearly 400,000 votes. Ohio was not even close enough for Kerry to demand that all the votes be counted. The pollsters had been dead wrong, Bush had four more years and a powerful mandate. Onward Christian soldiers--next stop, Tehran.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics

I work with statistics and polling data every day. Something rubbed me the wrong way. I checked the exit polls for Florida--all wrong. CNN's results indicated a Kerry win: turnout matched voter registration, and independents had broken 59% to 41% for Kerry.

Polling is an imprecise science. Yet its very imprecision is itself quantifiable and follows regular patterns. Differences between actual results and those expected from polling data must be explainable by identifiable factors if the polling sample is robust enough. With almost 3.000 respondents in Florida alone, the CNN poll sample was pretty robust.

The first signs of the rat were identified by Kathy Dopp, who conducted a simple analysis of voter registrations by party in Florida and compared them to presidential vote results. Basically she multiplied the total votes cast in a county by the percentage of voters registered Republican: this gave an expected Republican vote. She then compared this to the actual result.

Her analysis is startling. Certain counties voted for Bush far in excess of what one would expect based on the share of Republican registrations in that county. They key phrase is "certain counties"--there is extraordinary variance between individual counties. Most counties fall more or less in line with what one would expect based on the share of Republican registrations, but some differ wildly.

How to explain this incredible variance? Dopp found one over-riding factor: whether the county used electronic touch-screen voting, or paper ballots which were optically scanned into a computer. All of those with touch-screen voting had results relatively in line with her expected results, while all of those with extreme variance were in counties with optical scanning.

The intimation, clearly, is fraud. Ballots are scanned; results are fed into precinct computers; these are sent to a county-wide database, whose results are fed into the statewide electoral totals. At any point after physical ballots become databases, the system is vulnerable to external hackers.

It seemed too easy, and Dopp's method seemed simplistic. I re-ran the results using CNN's exit polling data. In each county, I took the number of registrations and assigned correctional factors based on the CNN poll to predict turnout among Republicans, Democrats, and independents. I then used the vote shares from the polls to predict a likely number of Republican votes per county. I compared this `expected' Republican vote to the actual Republican vote.

The results are shocking. Overall, Bush received 2% fewer votes in counties with electronic touch-screen voting than expected. In counties with optical scanning, he received 16% more. This 16% would not be strange if it were spread across counties more or less evenly. It is not. In 11 different counties, the `actual' Bush vote was at least twice higher than the expected vote. 13 counties had Bush vote tallies 50--100% higher than expected. In one county where 88% of voters are registered Democrats, Bush got nearly two thirds of the vote--three times more than predicted by my model.

Again, polling can be wrong. It is difficult to believe it can be that wrong. Fortunately, however, we can test how wrong it would have to be to give the `actual' result.

I tested two alternative scenarios to see how wrong CNN would have to have been to explain the election result. In the first, I assumed they had been wildly off the mark in the turnout figures--i.e. far more Republicans and independents had come out than Democrats. In the second I assumed the voting shares were completely wrong, and that the Republicans had been able to massively poach voters from the Democrat base.

In the first scenario, I assumed 90% of Republicans and independents voted, and the remaining ballots were cast by Democrats. This explains the result in counties with optical scanning to within 5%. However, in this scenario Democratic turnout would have been only 51% in the optical scanning counties--barely exceeding half of Republican turnout. It also does not solve the enormous problems in individual counties. 7 counties in this scenario still have actual vote tallies for Bush that are at least 100% higher than predicted by the model--an extremely unlikely result.

In the second scenario I assumed that Bush had actually got 100% of the vote from Republicans and 50% from independents (versus CNN polling results which were 93% and 41% respectively). If this gave enough votes for Bush to explain the county's results, I left the amount of Democratic registered voters ballots cast for Bush as they were predicted by CNN (14% voted for Bush). If this did not explain the result, I calculated how many Democrats would have to vote for Bush.

In 41 of 52 counties, this did not explain the result and Bush must have gotten more than CNN's predicted 14% of Democratic ballots--not an unreasonable assumption by itself. However, in 21 counties more than 50% of Democratic votes would have to have defected to Bush to account for the county result--in four counties, at least 70% would have been required. These results are absurdly unlikely.

The second rat

A previously undiscovered species of rat, Republicanus cuyahogus, has been found in Ohio. Before the election, I wrote snide letters to a state legislator for Cuyahoga county who, according to media reports, was preparing an army of enforcers to keep `suspect' (read: minority) voters away from the polls. One of his assistants wrote me back very pleasant mails to the effect that they had no intention of trying to suppress voter turnout, and in fact only wanted to encourage people to vote.

They did their job too well. According to the official statistics for Cuyahoga county, a number of precincts had voter turnout well above the national average: in fact, turnout was well over 100% of registered voters, and in several cases well above the total number of people who have lived in the precinct in the last century or so.

In 30 precincts, more ballots were cast than voters were registered in the county. According to county regulations, voters must cast their ballot in the precinct in which they are registered. Yet in these thirty precincts, nearly 100.000 more people voted than are registered to vote -- this out of a total of 251.946 registrations. These are not marginal differences--this is a 39% over-vote. In some precincts the over-vote was well over 100%. One precinct with 558 registered voters cast nearly 9,000 ballots. As one astute observer noted, it's the ballot-box equivalent of Jesus' miracle of the fishes. Bush being such a man of God, perhaps we should not be surprised.

What to do?

This is not an idle statistical exercise. Either the raw data from two critical battleground states is completely erroneous, or something has gone horribly awry in our electoral system--again. Like many Americans, I was dissatisfied with and suspicious of the way the Florida recount was resolved in 2000. But at the same time, I was convinced of one thing: we must let the system work, and accept its result, no matter how unjust it might appear.

With this acceptance, we placed our implicit faith in the Bush Administration that it would not abuse its position: that it would recognize its fragile mandate for what it was, respect the will of the majority of people who voted against them, and move to build consensus wherever possible and effect change cautiously when needed. Above all, we believed that both Democrats and Republicans would recognize the over-riding importance of revitalizing the integrity of the electoral system and healing the bruised faith of both constituencies.

This faith has been shattered. Bush has not led the nation to unity, but ruled through fear and division. Dishonesty and deceit in areas critical to the public interest have been the hallmark of his Administration. I state this not to throw gratuitous insults, but to place the Florida and Ohio electoral results in their proper context. For the GOP to claim now that we must take anything on faith, let alone astonishingly suspicious results in a hard-fought and extraordinarily bitter election, is pure fantasy. It does not even merit discussion.

The facts as I see them now defy all logical explanations save one--massive and systematic vote fraud. We cannot accept the result of the 2004 presidential election as legitimate until these discrepancies are rigorously and completely explained. From the Valerie Plame case to the horrors of Abu Ghraib, George Bush has been reluctant to seek answers and assign accountability when it does not suit his purposes. But this is one time when no American should accept not getting a straight answer. Until then, George Bush is still, and will remain, the `Accidental President' of 2000. One of his many enduring and shameful legacies will be that of seizing power through two illegitimate elections conducted on his brother's watch, and engineering a fundamental corruption at the very heart of the greatest democracy the world has known. We must not permit this to happen again.

(11/12/2004)
     - By Colin Shea, The Freezer Box

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Tags: election integrity (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 189 comments

  •  WOW! (4.00 / 5)

    Recommended... this is exactly the way I've been feeling the last couple of weeks, and this guy's a pollster and presumably knows his stuff.  This needs to be more widely publicized.

    People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

    by viget on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 09:52:41 PM PDT

  •  Ratting on the rats (3.11 / 9)

    First rat:

    This analysis does not take into account the Dixiecrats who we all know vote for Bush. This also does not take into account the fact that many of these counties have voted GOP for a long time. This shows bias on the part of the writer; she just ignores the facts which hurt her case.

    Second rat:

    If these stories of suppression are true, then I would like to see poll workers and voters come forward with their stories about suppression. When the stories start coming in to Kos and the rest of the forums, then I will believe in the claims of fraud a lot more strongly. I am not against a recount; after all, if Bush really won Ohio, then what does Blackwell have to hide? Also, Ohio has paper trails so election workers can doublecheck their totals against the tabulated results. Election judges are supposed to sample count the ballots so that they can ascertian that the count on the machines is accurate. If these proceedures were not followed, then could someone who is an election judge come on these pages and tell their story? I have an idea: Let's raise money as a community to put ads in the major Ohio dailies. Call for poll workers and disenfranchised voters to join this community and tell their stories. That would really strengthen our clout as well as get a lot of new voices here. If nobody comes forward, then that means that there is not enough evidence that the fraud was serious enough to affect the outcome of the election. But even if there wasn't, then we still need to push for paper trails, secure voting machines, and nonpartisan secretaries of state in 2006.

    Regarding the Bush administration, I agree that they have been one of the most divisive administrations ever, exceeding the Reagan years. Reagan at least ended his wars with Tip O'Neill at 6 p.m. and have friendly relations. Even John Kerry gave a nice tribute to him after he passed away. But Bush has pandered to Rush Limbaugh, James Dobson, and PNAC, asa The American Nationalist Movement. But we don't know whether there was fraud or not without further evidence. I have called for the people who genuinely believe that there is fraud to produce poll workers or voters who have experienced this fraud. So far, they have not produced these people, but only repetitive diaries repeating the same things over and over. I remain skeptical of claims of fraud, as there are other explainations.

    •  Voter Irregularities... (none / 1)

      See voters unite site for some reports of voter suppression, as well as many other problems.

      This was posted on another diary...I forget which.

      "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty." -- Edward R. Murrow

      by juniper on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:17:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the link. (none / 1)

        Most of the glitches mentioned had to do with computer crashes. It is very clear that we need reform in 2006.

        Some of the gliches may have actually helped Kerry. One FL county gave Kerry a 9000-vote victory when he actually won by only 800 due to a computer malfunction:

        http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orl-locvotetotals12111204nov12,1,2450210.story

        •  Hmmmm. . . . I read about this. Now IF (4.00 / 5)

          I were to rig an election, I'd be certain to have a few anomalies run the opposite way--on the ready--to deflect appearances of wrongdoing.

          Think about it.  Wouldn't you?  

          I wonder if anyone could come forth if they know the particulars on how that computer that benefitted Kerry just happened to come to light--when just about everything else is in darkness.  

          And, YES, this administration has proven itself so untrustworthy that I question EVERYTHING they do.  

          Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

          by Einsteinia on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 11:12:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's how: (none / 0)

            1. Election judges could testify that the sample vote count is way different than the count given on the machines or that the work wasn't done. In many cases, the errors were detected and corrected.

            2. Voters could testify that they were intimidated by poll-watchers who challenged their registration.

            Conspiracy theories have been wrong many times as well, so I have a healthy skepticism about them.
            •  As to 1 and 2: (4.00 / 6)

              1 and 2:  Are currently in progress, and please do keep your healthy suspicion as long as you're open to all possibilities when evidence arrives and don't hinder the investigations necessary to find that evidence.  

              But as to your suggestion that is just another conspiracy,  I argue it's not.  What it is is a logical suspicion based on a pattern of anomalies, combined with blatant opportunity and enormous motive.  In the accounting world, when things don't add up, they do an audit.

              Let's put it this way, as Guardians of Democracy for our generation, if we were talking about a child, we'd all be indicted by Child Protective Services.

              Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

              by Einsteinia on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 11:41:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thr First Job Of A Conspricy Is (4.00 / 6)

              to convince most of the gullible that no conspricy happened.

              It's Job 1.

              You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

              by mattman on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 01:32:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And MY First Job Is to (4.00 / 3)

                learn how to spell "conspiracy".

                You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

                by mattman on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 01:34:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  And the First Job of a Conspiracy Theorist (4.00 / 3)

                Is to make sure that their theories aren't capable of being falsified.

                1. If there is any evidence that would contradict the theory, then that's disinformation to put people off the scent. Like errors in Kerry's favor.

                2. If there is the absence of solid of evidence to bolster the theory, that's because they have been cunningly effective and hiding their tracks. Therefore, suggestive evidence should be considered valid because its the best we can hope for.

                3. Assert that if someone is skeptical of their claims, it is because they are close-minded... or have an interest in the aims of the conspiracy. (see #5)

                4. Demonstrate a failure or imagination: "I can't imagine how it is possible that so many Democrats could have voted for Bush: it wouldn't have happened".

                5. Use ad hominem attacks: "It's people like you who let the Republicans get away with this stuff". And the circumstantial ad hominem is particularly effective: "Of course they don't care about voter fraud: they're Republican officials".

                6. Fail to account for how the malefactors could possibly keep a lid on a complex, widespread effort involving multiple co-conspirators - when there are incentives (such as fame and potential wealth) for any one of their members to blow their cover.

                The times, they are a-changin'

                by Malacandra on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:37:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Clarification (4.00 / 2)

                  Having said all this, I do think there's enough circumstantial evidence to warrant investigation.

                  But since we're talking about conspiracy theories, I thought I'd outline the traits of one...

                  The times, they are a-changin'

                  by Malacandra on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:43:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  6? (4.00 / 2)

                  How about if you dare come forward you will be treated with all the respect shown to Joe Wilson, Paul O'Neill, etc.

                  In regards to 1, how many stories have we heard of inflated Kerry vote totals? That's the first one I've heard of actually.

                  2, I'm not sure many people do allege a large-scale fraud- it takes only one CIA hacker to crack Ohio County's database between the time it's uploaded and sent off to the Secretary of State. This is a job that could easily have been done as little as one or at most a handful of people- certainly less than it took to lead our country into war based on faulty intelligence sold as a "slam dunk."

                  Since we don't have to Secretary of State in our back pocket what kind of evidence do you think we can reasonably get? Hopefully Bev Harris' FOIA requests and Nader's recount request will help solve some of these questions, but until then I cannot understand anyone who thinks they know there's absolutely nothing wrong with the sanctity of our vote. I remain an open mind that is deeply troubled by the moutning evidence that large-scale holes were left in our voting system by a GOP Congress and a couple of GOP SOS's.

                  •  I think overturning (none / 0)

                    This election is an extremely remote possibility: we have to raise such a stink that something will be done.
                    Oh, for a "Deep Throat"
                  •  There's no proof of your scenario happening. (none / 0)

                    First of all, I do think there is widespread evidence of untrained/unprofessional election judges and county officials screwing up on voter rolls. There is also evidence of intimidation and people telling voters they are at the wrong precinct or that Dems only vote on the 4th. There is also evidence that many machines failed to work, meaning that there is POTENTIAL (not proof) of fraud.

                    But if the CIA had hacked into the Ohio databases, then election judges would have raised an alarm over the statewide vote totals being different than the county-by-county totals. There are some judges who are incompetent and untrained. But there are many more who would freak out if they saw differences between what they counted and what the SOS offices total was. I know some election judges personally, and they would freak out if they were to have their integrity questioned in any way, shape, or form.

                    When you propose a conspiracy such as the CIA hacking into the voting systems, then the burden of proof is on you to produce evidence. Otherwise, people will just see us as a bunch of sore losers and ignore the real problems with the voting system such as what I have mentioned.

                    •  I'm not a lawyer (none / 1)

                      and this is not a criminal prosecution. This is a call for people to wake up and SIMPLY ASK QUESTIONS and then demand answsers to those questions. I really am on the fence about this. I have no burden of proof- the media has already written off blogs as a bunch of crazy conspiracy nuts. Besides, I suggested it only took one CIA or otherwise skilled hacker to do the deed not the netire agency. Rogue agents are not a new thing. I think we should put the burden on THEM to prove the vote was fair- I want an audit and I don't care what it takes to get it. We're not going to shut up unless we get the people in power to recognize the various problems with this election and find out what happened- kind of like the 9/11 commission for our election system.
    •  well... (none / 1)

      ...regarding rat 1, it's not entirely clear that the analyst DID correct for the Dixiecrat phenom.  She did reweight the registration numbers with the CNN exit poll info regarding turnout, so that should have dampened the Dixiecrat effect.  And, even if she didn't the Dixiecrat panhandle counties only account for like 7-8 of the 20-odd some op-scan counties in FL, yet she still saw some systematic departure from normal in all the counties.

      It would have been nice if she had done the same analysis on 2000 data and seen if she got similar results.

      The other thing to think about regarding panhandle dixiecrats, we're not talking about huge numbers here, the counties are sparsely populated.  Big changes in %, but not in absolute numbers.  Where the op-scan effect is a little more disturbing are in places like Pinellas, Orange, Osceola, I-4 corridor counties that actually have a significant population base and yet we still see these discrepancies.  I wouldn't consider that dixiecrat land.

      People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

      by viget on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:18:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dixiecrats deux (4.00 / 9)

        One more thing about the dixiecrats. She's talking about a disparity in number of Dem votes for Bush only in counties that vote with optiscans.

        For the dixiecrat argument to work, then, wouldn't you need to come up with some explanation for why optiscan counties contain more dixiecrats than the counties next door that voted for Kerry in an expected fashion? Is it having to fill out bubbles that makes one into a dixiecrat?

        This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

        by emptywheel on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:41:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is exactly my point... (4.00 / 3)

          ...many of the op-scan counties are NOT in the dixiecrat panhandle (some are in the vaunted I-4 corridor, hardly a dixiecrat bastion).  While the refutation may be true for the panhandle counties, I remain unconvinced that the more populous counties that used op-scan had "dixiecrat"-like explanations.

          The good news, op-scan voting leaves a paper trail!  So all we need to do is get a recount in the most populous, non-dixiecrat counties (Orange and Osceola, by Disney World and Orlando come to mind) and see if the vote tallies match.

          People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

          by viget on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:51:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wouldn't Dixiecrats show up in exit polls? (4.00 / 4)

            If a 80% democratic precinct actually voted 80% republican (the Florida Panhandle dixiecrat assumption) - then it should show up that way in the exit polls, and thus not be part of whatever it was that caused Florida's exit polls - unlike 48 eight states that day who's exit polls were accurate - to be so many points off from expectations. . .

            so whatever caused the difference between the exit polls and the tabulated results has to be something else . . .

            and what would that be, pray tell?

            "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - Barack Obama

            by AikidoPilgrim on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 12:25:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Florida Exit Polls Compared to National Exit Polls (4.00 / 2)

              FLORIDA EXIT POLL DATA

              Share of the Democratic Vote:

              2004
              Dem. Vote = 37% of Total
              Bush = 14%
              Kerry = 85%

              2000
              Dem. Vote = 39% of Total
              Bush = 13%
              Gore = 86%
              Nader = 1%

              1996
              Dem. Vote = 39% of Total
              Dole = 8%
              Clinton = 87%
              Perot = 5%

              1992
              Dem. Vote = 41% of Total
              Bush = 16%
              Clinton = 68%
              Perot = 16%

              NATIONAL EXIT POLL DATA

              Share of the Democratic Vote:

              2004
              Dem. Vote = 37% of Total
              Bush = 11%
              Kerry = 89%

              2000
              Dem. Vote = 39% of Total
              Bush = 11%
              Gore = 86%
              Nader = 2%

              1996
              Dem. Vote = 39% of Total
              Dole = 10%
              Clinton = 84%
              Perot = 5%

              1992
              Dem. Vote = 38% of Total
              Bush = 10%
              Clinton = 77%
              Perot = 13%

              •  Do we have access to exit polls by County? (none / 0)

                If so, the best way to look at the Dixicrat issue would be to compare exit poll projections and final votes in these Dixicrat counties. If the outcomes are consistent, then the case should be closed. If they are not, then the Dixicrat explanation should be questioned.

                "The delusional is no longer marginal but has come in from the fringe to influence the seats of power

                by FightOn on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 09:33:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Alas, (none / 0)

                  The exit polls asked what party they consider themselves part of, not what party they are official registered under.

                  This creates a problem for us - it's a stupid question.

                  Victim of the *other* war America is waging.

                  by nephalim on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 10:38:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  This sounds like a consperacy theory but... (4.00 / 3)

            If fraud is suspected, and it is suspected to have occured in tabulating the votes, how do you rcount whith ut going through the same tabulating machines with EXACTLY the same opportunity to alter the tabulation?

            Hand tallies?  Tallies by an outside vendor?  (NO ONE IN THE FIELD IS OUTSIDE THE LIST OF SUSPECTS.)

            If the talliy comes out differnt but not decicevly so, is that legitimate vagrities in the counting process, honest errors, or a sign that something is wrong?

            The situation is getting out of control, not becuase of those of us that suspect fraud, but because there are AMPLE signs that something is not right, and trusting ANY results at this point is difficult.

            Wrong time, wrong war, WRONG PRESIDENT!

            by Mr Tek on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 09:50:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If I follow you, (none / 0)

              the only two people who know the truth are you and me, and I have my doubts about you.

              If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

              by hestal on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 09:55:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's the way I was afraid I would come off. (none / 0)

                In reality, what I am asking is, if the origional tallies are suspect, and nothing changes, why would new tallies be any more reliable.

                We are NOT asking for recounts becuase we think machine malfnctioned or blind human error.

                The reason for asking for recounts this year is we question the integrity of the process, Without sidestepping the process, nothing has been proven, and it would be VERY sloppy operators who managed to alter the first count, but allowed a second count.  Without changing the process used to recount, all you have is a re-tabulation of the first count, and since the machines have notchanged, and I am sure that weather it was certified production software, or contaminated stealth software that did the initial count, it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSABLE, and the height of folly to beliee that a recount would be even marginally differnt. It would not prove tampering either way, but it would also not prove tampering did NOT happen.

                A recount using the same machines and the same people and the same software should produce EXACTLY the same results, either by being meticulusly accurate, or heavily tampered, the results cannot be expected to vary.

                That is not a conspiracy theory, nor does it even pretend to answer ANY questions, but it is a basic rule in programming.

                If the program is unaltered, and you provide the same inputs, the program will provide the same output. Now, if the softeware has been "corrected" the results are GOING to vary, but there are multiple explinations that unless the recount process has a way to isolate varables (not the least bit likely,) will again provide NO USEFUL ANSWERS. (in addition to all of the issues that al;ready are in play, add that ANY alteration to software requires EXTENSIVE testing to assure that new bugs were not incorporated in the process of fixing the software. Now if the initial bugs that had to be corrected, survived 2 plus years of searching, themn it is laughable at best to believe that errors were located, repaired and adaquite tests run to assure no new errors.

                So the recount will either be run using the same software, which had better match the origonal tallies, nearly to the vote, or you use "patched software, that even with the most absolute trust in the integraty of the programmers is going to produce widly differing results with no indication that it is any more accurate, and a strong expectation that it is simply so bug ridden that the reult is absolutly worthless.

                Wrong time, wrong war, WRONG PRESIDENT!

                by Mr Tek on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 04:17:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  recounts (none / 0)

                  I'm pretty sure that in NH and Ohio, what we're talking about are hand recounts.  So, the ballots aren't going to be inputted into the tallying machines, they're going to be counted by hand.  And those results will be independently tallied- not run through the same programs.

                  That's been my understanding from the start- due to the fact that in Ohio, the "spoiled" ballots will be counted in the recount, and they definitely can't go in the machines.

                  I totally understand your fear, but I think in this case it's groundless.

            •  The tabulating machines (none / 0)

              received extra votes from somewhere as if they were from a counting machine. Rescanning and tabulation without anyone dialing in to add votes would produce a correct result. It is not the machines that are gamed, just the database.
        •  Can someone (none / 1)

          Just do a freakin' survey of the "Dixiecrat" counties? We should know in three days +/-3%.
        •  o/t quibble (none / 0)

          Why is everyone assuming that Colin Shea is "she"?
          This interesting piece in Newtopia has a bio and a picture of Colin Shea with a gentle beard at the bottom. It is presumably the same person as the Zogby contributor, since there is a link-with-plug to the very piece under discussion here in the left margin.
      •  This was posted on Zogby yesterday (4.00 / 12)

        Even if all of these concerns are not addressed in this short article, it seems very unlikely that they were not considered. The kind of rigorous proof being demanded to prove fraud cannot be provided without an investigation.

        A prima facie case for irregularities/fraud does exist. Demands for more rigorous proof are like telling the police that they should drop the investigation unless there is a smoking gun with fingerprints at the scene of the crime.

        Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

        by JollyBuddah on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:50:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Precisely! (4.00 / 15)

          The naysayers think we're saying "this proves fraud."

          No.  We're saying this "smells" like fraud and needs to be investigated.

          If we needed a smoking gun in order to pursue criminal investigations, none would ever take place.

          We have enough "irregularities" to warrant an investigation, which, quite frankly, is all I really see people here advocating.

          There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Hamlet Act 1, Scene 5

          by LawStudent on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 11:11:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, here's one nice thing... (4.00 / 3)

            At least the main "discrepancies" being discussed are in counties with optical scanners.  So speculation isn't really necessary; a manual count of the paper ballots should settle the issue.
            •  Before the audit is 'done,' the central.... (4.00 / 2)

              ....tabulating systems in each State need to investigated, as well.

              Begin the audit at the last and central step in the process and be sure to investigate every aspect of physical and electronic access to both the locations of each 'central tabulating system' and the hw/sw used, and all telecom gear, lan routers, etc.

              Include comprehensive scrutiny of all I/O logs -- all of them.

              If leadership had existed prior to this election [and perhaps it has and we don't know about it, yet], that leadership would have put in place comprehensive surveilence of potential sources of 'systemic disenfranchisement,' especially of the central tabulating centers and systems.

              So, for all of those who think we should wait until next time, I think that if anything is 'bogus' it is the urging of any form of 'wating until next time,' 'looking forward to 2006,' and the like.  We will be 'moving on' to even less of an opportunity to call a 'halt and fix'; we will be doing a 'wait and hope' when we have more than enough instance reports to suggest that we have absolutely no grounds for 'hoping' that things will get better -- none.

              Now or Not, that's the choice.

              And, once again, the outcome of this election is unknown and unknowable because the systems used are so broken, so fraught with 'glitches,' so capable of being hacked, so un-monitored, as to render the entire process into the classification of farce -- a farce about the core of our attempt to be a Democracy -- transparent, equivalent, secure and verifiable expression of our choice of those who are to serve US and represent our Nation to the world.

              "It's about America" [the one on life support and in need of immediate, heroic treatment]

          •  I happen to be one of the most outspoken believers (4.00 / 3)

            That samething is not right.

            I have REPEATEDLY stated in virtually every post, that while I believe something is not right, I can not prove it.

            I have argued repeatedly that there are plentyof questions that MUST be resolved, but I have always stated that it is possable other explinations might prove out in the end, just that none of them are very likely, and we need ABSOLUTE ANSWERS, not shugging off the possability becuase we don't like the consequences if it is fraud.

            I have only hinted at what responses would be UNAVOIDABLE if fraud was proven. If fraud were proven, there are only a couple of possable responses, and none of them is good.

            But, step one is resolve the questions, in a way that cannot be challanged.  So far the only answer to teh questions is that we don't like those questions being asked. There are CREDIBLE questions, that require an answer, pretending that those questions are not legitimate simply discredits any calls for accountability.

            Wrong time, wrong war, WRONG PRESIDENT!

            by Mr Tek on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 10:07:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Precisely, it is time for a National Audit.... (4.00 / 2)

              ...not after 13 Dec 2004. Not as some 'historical exercise' in 2005.

              Now.

              And, the consequences are brutally simple.

              1. Full exposure of all relevant issues -- from intimidation, to essential monopoloy of 'voting systems' [from e-vote, to optiscan, to tabulating hw/sw...], to glaring inconsistencies and everything else that currently contributes to the lethal disease infecting our Democracy -- 'systemic disenfranchisement.'

              2. If the audit reveals that the franchise is indeed as ill as it appears, then prescribe the only therapy with any hope of saving it -- RE_VOTE -- using a system that the Carter Center and other credible vote-observer organizations would verify.

              3. Or, move forward into the fantasy-land of 'well make it better next time' while the patient dies.

              "It's about America" [the one on life support and in need of immediate, heroic treatment -- not MORE wishful thinking]
      •  How have these counties voted since 1992? (none / 0)

        Democratic or Republican?
        Also, where are the precinct totals for these counties? As skeptics, we need more data before be jump to conclusions regarding fraud. Also, are there churches in the area that have grown a lot that are heavily conservative?
        •  asdf (none / 0)

          I think people keep making a mistake here.  Within the counties, it is not like the electoral college where winner takes all for the state.  Even if many of these counties have voted repbublican before, the margins were'nt so outlandish.  I can't find the reference at the moment, but as I recall in some of these so-called dixiecrat counties democrats voted something like 7-1 for Bush.  These figures are apparently not in keeping with past performance.  Kerry is much closer to winning Florida if he lost these counties at smaller margins.  Add to that the overall possiblility of a more wide spread problem with optical scanners under counting Kerry votes across the state and even in counties he won.

          (my apologies, when I find the previous diaries containing this info, I will add).

      •  Why oh Why (4.00 / 2)

        Why would the dixiecrats vote so heavily for Bush but not for the senate and house races in those counties. One of the larger counties in question actually voted for the democratic senator and all the counties showed a much larger percentage of republican presendential votes then senate or house votes
        •  someone told me (none / 0)

          no democrat has won those counties since Jimmy Carter

          A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people ... restore their government to it's true principles.

          by maddrailin on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 12:23:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Good question... (none / 0)

          They wouldn't.

          Tarheel born, tarheel bred! And when I die, I'll be tarheel dead.

          by NCYellowDog on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 01:45:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  depends on what the ballot looked like (none / 0)

            I know someone pointed out the same type of weirdness in NC - but it turned out to be something to do with the way the ballot was set up.

            All of this stuff is just speculation anyways - a good republican operative would just say - well they were obviously drawn out to vote for their messiah, George Bush and just ignored the rest of the ballot.

            A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people ... restore their government to it's true principles.

            by maddrailin on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 01:50:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Check data PRIOR to 1998 (none / 0)

        Questions about exit polls not reflecting the actual election results started appearing during the 1998 election.  Before that, they were quite accurate.  If anyone is comparing results from different years, try 1996 and 2004.

        "Investigative reporting is not stenography", Maureen Dowd, Oct. 22, 2005

        by Jackson on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:31:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Put away tin-foil theories, and think about this: (4.00 / 11)

      What we have in 2004 appears to be a systematic effort to sway the election AT SPECIFIC TIMES AND IN STRATEGIC LOCALES, beginning with efforts to screw up new voter registrations, segueing into efforts to delay and discourage targeted populations at the polls, and then topped off with attempts to alter vote totals at some locations during the vote tabulation itself.

      It wouldn't take much for each effort to have a larger ripple effect on the final outcome. It is much easier to cover several smaller efforts than a larger organized one.

      1. The "poor registration" efforts were mostly within legal limits, and therefore not generally open to question (Sproul excepted): many voters showed up to vote, only to find that their registrations had not been processed because of minor irregularities - missing signatures, missing date of birth, wrong precinct - which cannot all be explained away as "honest" mistakes.

      2. The second phase included: precincts that lacked enough workers, enough machines, and even enough ballots to process all the voters who were eligible to cast votes. Add here all of the voters who were forced to use provisional ballots (under questionable rules) because of #1, and the number of uncounted votes begins to reach astonishing totals.

      3. Attempts to alter totals could be coordinated with higher ups, and therefore limited in scope: all that would be needed were some "tweaks" in the final swing state totals, and the outcome could be almost guaranteed. There were enough reports of questionable machines, unauthorized access, and final tabulations done without witnesses, to explain the results - all WITHOUT including Dixiecrats, or genuine machine errors which were corrected later.

      These possibilities are all consistent with "Rovian" tactics, under highly partisan election officials, and repeat what we observed in 2000, but on a larger scale.

      They could all be held "in reserve", to be implemented only as needed.

      They are also consistent with reports from the registration drives, during the vote itself, and throughout the night as the tabulating went on.

      They help to explain the skewed exit polls, without resorting to tin-foil theories.

      They could explain reports of the unusual computer "war room" at the White House, Rove's odd statements about "his" numbers disagreeing with reported numbers, and his consultations with precinct captains - especially in Ohio as the tide "turned".

      Hope you can see where I'm going with this; it doesn't take a large "conspiracy" to turn an election, just the right amounts of pressure, applied in just the right places, at just the right time.

      "The first duty of government is to protect the powerless against the powerful."
      Code of Hammurabi, 1700 B.C.
      www.caringbridge.org/visit/brittany

      by CodeTalker on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 03:41:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bingo! (none / 0)

        Yeap. Agree. See:

        "It can be helpful to have a testable hypothesis..." comment at:

        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/8/114232/967

      •  Little Fudges are Harder to Find than Big Ones (none / 1)

        You're absolutely right. Reminds me of the great quote in Broadcast News, where Albert Brooks character says, "He is the devil. Think about it. He won't hurt anyone, and he will charm everyone, and he will just make us lower our standards." Basically, he's saying you can get away with the little stuff. A little voter intimidation here, a little registration suppression written off as "incompetence" there, a shortage of ballots and poll workers over here, and then some fortuitous computer "errors" over there... and voila, guarantee victory.

        It all underscores the need for a system of random audits at every phase of the process. That means matching the paper trail to the machine counts, putting undercover agents in suspect county clerks' offices, and sending agents into the polls to see how they're treated and whether or not they're encouraged to cast provisional ballots.

        A failing electoral system, whether the fault of incompetence or fraud, is absolutely unacceptable.

    •  coming forward (none / 1)

      i believe the first open hearing for personal experiences was on saturday afternoon and the next will be on monday.

      from http://indyvoter.org/

      "THIS IS A NONPARTISAN STATEWIDE CALL TO ACTION. VOTERS AND POLL WORKERS FROM AROUND THE STATE ARE INVITED TO TESTIFY.

      Saturday November 13, 1-4 PM
      New Faith Baptist Church
      955 Oak Street
      Columbus, Ohio 43205

      Monday November 15, 6-9 PM,
      Auditorium (Meeting Room A)
      Courthouse, 373 S. High St.
      Columbus, OH

      Voters, poll workers, and poll watchers who experienced or observed election
      irregularities or vote suppression on Election Day to come forward and
      give their testimony."

      i haven't heard any reports about the results yet.
      let's see what happens on tuesday.

      I used to admire you for pointing out that it takes a village. Now, I just wonder how many villages have been destroyed and children killed by this war.

      by lostinbrasil on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:17:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i live in a (4.00 / 5)

      supposedly Dixiecrat like county
      I am my democractic precinct committeeperson
      While there were a few dems who said "i wouldn't vote for that commie Kerry" i also had QUITE a few Republicans say while they voted for B*** in 2000, there was NO WAY that they could or would vote for him in 2004. My precinct is rural, in fl's cabbage and potatoe capital. 571 registered reps 533 reg dems and 371 reg other. the #'s just don't quite seem to match the anger against B and the votes cast. Optical scan county.

      Bush/Cheney04 Because it takes 8 years to Destroy the Country Download GeckosAgainstBS song

      by demnomore on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:29:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rat responses (2.50 / 1)

      First rat:
      This analysis does not take into account the Dixiecrats

      The dixiecrat factor only exists in a small portion of these counties, not in all of them. Many of these counties did not vote for Bush in 'oo, and none by the margin they did this year.

      We need to stop repeating Republicans claims of "debunking" something. When in four years have they not been lying? Attacking other dems' claims only allows the Republicans to pretend publicly that there are no voter problems at all, which is patently untrue.

    •  There doesn't have to be fraud on-site (4.00 / 4)

      From  Hackthevote
      If the GEMS machine is networked - (I have heard conflicting reports as to whether they are or not)

      1) Wander into the building, and quietly put a wireless access point on the same network segment as the Tabulation PC, maybe behind a copier somewhere, and then casually come in from across the street using a laptop and wireless card.

      We know they're connected by modems, so:

      1. Find the telephone number of the office the PC is located in, and use a "war-dialing" program such as ToneLoc to dial all of the numbers in that exchange looking for a hanging modem.  This technique was made famous by the 1983 movie "Wargames" and it still works today.  These machines typically have hanging modems installed, so this should be a fairly easy way in.

      2. Come in through the Internet.  It is reported that many of these machines are connected to the Internet to enable results to be queried using Jresult to pull data from the central PCs.  Windows PCs on the Internet are inherently vulnerable, particularly if they're not behind a firewall.  Since a firewall would prevent the legitimate Jresult queries from being made, these machines are likely at extreme risk for being compromised through their Internet connection.

      Then there are the REALLY easy ways....

      1. If you're an insider, you already have the phone numbers and any usernames and passwords you may need.  Dial into the machine, authenticate normally, and then manipulate the data as explained below.

      2. Again, if you're an insider - walk up to the machine and use the keyboard and mouse.  Most poll workers, despite being good, caring people, tend to be political enough to motivate them to volunteer.  It's just human nature to use the tools at your disposal to your advantage, and people have a remarkable knack for justifying even the worst acts if they can convince themselves that the cause is worthwhile.

      Note for non-technical folks - did you know that in Windows, C: drives are shared out by default?  No?  Well, they are.  But there's a super-secret Hacker trick to connect to them.  You have to call it C$ instead of just C.  The $ means it's a "hidden" drive, but it is still accessible via the network!  Pick any Class C (classes are how network addresses are broken up) range of network addresses on the Internet and I'll guarantee that you can simply "map" someone else's C: drive over the Internet and browse their hard drives without their knowledge.

      Think this couldn't happen?  Are you stupid?  This happens every minute of every single day.  American companies spend Billions of dollars a year trying to protect corporate computer systems from attack - would they do that for no reason?

      I got more on my diary

    •  what are you afraid of? (4.00 / 3)

      If no fraud, fine, an investigation or recount will prove it, then.  If yes, that will also prove it.  What is the harm in certainty?  Why are people so opposed to any investigation in to the integrity of the election?  Shouldn't we want to know the system works?  Why so much argument against any investigation or any recounts???  If you truly believe no fraud, shouldn't you be pushing for an investigation or a recount to prove it and shut all the rest of us up with real proof?  I am so sick of the past 4 years and its apparent belief in "we tell you it's so, therefore, you may not question and you must believe, because we say so, and if you do question you are crazy or a hack or even, assisting terrorists"  We are suppose to question, that's how you keep a system honest.  With no checks and balances, no questioning, you get what we have now.  And I don't believe that's what our country should be.
      •  Actually: (none / 1)

        Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You are right about the need to ask questions. That is why I am demanding more evidence before I can safely say that the machines were hacked.

        The burden of proof in these cases rests with the people claiming the hacking took place. All you have proved is that hacking is a possiblility. That is why we need paper trails, non-partisan Secretaries of State, and secure electronic systems that can't be hacked in to. Nobody's against that.

        But what we need to do next is convince an impartial investigator or the media to investigate these stories. We all know these machines are flawed and we have known that for a long time. That's why the media doesn't consider that news. We need to produce election judges WHO WERE THERE that the machine count was wrong. The NYT and Olbermann are raising questions about the vote count. Black Box Voting is doing FIOA requests for documents relating to the election. That is good too. But we should not rush to conclusions before they've done their jobs.

    •  Please note: (4.00 / 2)

      The author of this piece is in Prague.  As an ex-pat this person may not have known about the
      Dixiecrat phenom.

      Second rat: between Sproul (sp?) & assoc., leaflets, knockout calls, misinformation and
      targeted counties w/ not enough machines and the ones that were there bollixed up with glitches
      and old age I think voter suppression is not in question.  Besides-

      The main point is that we have a system that supposedly runs on checks and balances.  This
      system of voting has no checks and, with the heavy thumb of the Repubs. on the scale, little
      if any balance.

      But Holy State (we have lived to learn) Endeth in Holy War. - Kipling

      by nargel on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 12:59:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wish they would have provided specifics (4.00 / 3)

    What counties in Florida? What precincts in Cuyahoga?

    Publish the  model and let other pollsters analyze/critique. Instead, it's I have a model, yada, yada, yada. No specifics, no way to test these claims.

    Until they're willing to put some data on the table, I give this piece as much credence as I would to  anybody making claims without any proof.

    Moderation, the noblest gift of heaven. - Euripedes

    by recentdemocrat on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:22:29 PM PDT

    •  Ditto (none / 0)

      You'd think that a pollster from Zogby would be of the type who posts tons of sources to back up his claim.

      Besides what you asked for, I want to see the original pre-election polls in those counties.  If it's a poll of all registered voters and it concluded a Kerry majority...well, then this is one big smelly rat.

      The author kind of glazed over the part where she replaced the registered voter data with the polled voter data.  If I was looking to gather credibility on the issue, I'd have tackled the Dixiecrat issue head-on and proved why it was irrelevant.  A good essay gives proof as irrefutably as it can.  The author didn't do that.  It could show blatant bias, or it could just show a lack of essay-writing skills.

      Come to think about it, the consistent usage of the rat analogy was really well-done, I thought.  that shows good writing skills...I wonder why the essay is inconsistent in its' proof then...oh well.

      I wonder why this essay is on the Zogby website, though.  That gives it alot of credibility, when it's really not that credible in its' present state.  I wouldn't submit it to a major news outlet.  Not yet, anyway.  We could find the resources we need, find our proof, and then have the essay re-written to emphasize the irrelevance of the Dixiecrat possibility.  After that, this needs to be publicized loud and smelly and clear.

      I say we write the author and ask.

      •  I think Zogby (none / 1)

        was a teensy bit skeptical himself.

        The day after the election he posted a personal note on his site - something like "I was sure Ohio and Florida were trending Kerry's way.  Guess I was wrong..."

        literally something like that.

        A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people ... restore their government to it's true principles.

        by maddrailin on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 01:14:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're right about Zogby (none / 0)

             This essay has all the earmarks of a shot across someone's bow. After I slept on it I think it's too early to know if this is just a ploy to retain his near mythic status (undeserved I think) amongst some as the best of the pollsters.  "I would have gotten it right except for the 'fraud' "???
             Or will more analysis be forthcoming now that a professional pollster has gone on record through  this cat's paw suggesting that the election results might be tainted? Hmmm.
             If this is a clipping service, and it was posted automatically, then expect it to be taken down Monday. If it stays up, I think that we can draw the inference that Zogby agrees with the content. Think about it. Pretty inflammatory article on the website (no matter where it's located) of a respected pollster. Trial balloon?

          Moderation, the noblest gift of heaven. - Euripedes

          by recentdemocrat on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:21:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Zogby had nothing to do with the article. (none / 0)

            Didn't you read the posts above? It wasn't written by anyone at Zogby International, it was in their media section.

            Victim of the *other* war America is waging.

            by nephalim on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 08:24:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's on his website (none / 1)

              And thus could seriously damage his credibility, regardless of who wrote it.  

              Zogby is sticking his neck out on this, no doubt about it.

              "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

              by Subterranean on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 09:24:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That's why I posted this caveat (none / 0)

              "If this is a clipping service, and it was posted automatically, then expect it to be taken down Monday. If it stays up, I think that we can draw the inference that Zogby agrees with the content"

                 You may have missed that part in my post.  

              Moderation, the noblest gift of heaven. - Euripedes

              by recentdemocrat on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 10:01:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  OOPS- Scratch what I just said (none / 0)

              I went over to the media section to see a list of the articles that are in there. They run the gamut of opinion and he has a big disclaimer. I should have done this before posting any comments
              . Mea culpa.

              Moderation, the noblest gift of heaven. - Euripedes

              by recentdemocrat on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 10:07:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks (none / 1)

    Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past. George Orwell

    by moon in the house of moe on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 10:27:49 PM PDT

  •  Thanks Einsteinia.... (4.00 / 6)

    ....glad it's on the recommended list.

    It is time to take a stand. National audit, now.

    No certification of anything until we have a complete accounting of what happened in the attempted National Election of 2004.

    Anything less and we will have shirked our responsiblity to current and future generations.

    The franchise is threatened; the people in power have deceived in everything from Iraq to our fiscal well-being. The only barrier between them and our franchise is US.

    "It's about America" [the one life support and in need of immediate, heroic treatment]

  •  The second rat... (none / 0)

    ...has been explained, for the most part.  The surplus votes in Cuyahoga County resulted from a programming error that assigned absentee ballots multiple times.  The ward totals have always worked out correctly.

    I would be surprised to find any widespread instances of miscounting in Ohio.  I do, however, expect the provisional ballots to reduce GWB's margin enough so that the "spoiled" ballots that have not been counted could potentially swing the state.  And the investigation into possible voter suppression must go on as well.

    Yes, in fact, I do drive a Volvo.

    by KTinOhio on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 11:10:40 PM PDT

  •  Hold the phone. (none / 0)

    Guys, I wouldn't get too excited. This article is from the "Zogby Polls in The Media" section of his website. It may not be and probably isn't an endorsement of its content...
    •  Clipping service (none / 0)

      I'm guessing, but most likely the content found its way on the site from a clipping service.  The author mentions zogby pretty heavily in the beginning of the article, which would flag this in any clipping service.  

      Its pretty common practice with some business to hire clipping services to find out what is published about them.  Some use it for publicity purposes as well.

  •  Not Cuyahoga county again (none / 0)

    this was debunked - at least if it's the results from Cuyahoga's own website.

    It's something to do with even-numbered years when there are congressional elections, the county's results are grouped by the larger contests on the ballot, not by precincts

    A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people ... restore their government to it's true principles.

    by maddrailin on Sat Nov 13, 2004 at 11:44:18 PM PDT

    •  So I've heard (4.00 / 5)

      It's really complicated.  Even nuanced.

      Whatever.

      Let's just have our recount/investigation and be done with it.

      There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Hamlet Act 1, Scene 5

      by LawStudent on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 12:02:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  hopefully (none / 0)

        that will happen - and everyones fears can finally be put to rest one way or another

        A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people ... restore their government to it's true principles.

        by maddrailin on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 12:08:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  aren't all of our national elections (none / 0)

      in even numbered years?

      I used to admire you for pointing out that it takes a village. Now, I just wonder how many villages have been destroyed and children killed by this war.

      by lostinbrasil on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 07:22:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  two hurdles (4.00 / 2)

    at least this person may know what they're talking about! and that this is on zogby's site says something. i don't know what. anyway, it ultimately falls short yet again...

    i think there are TWO hurdles that all fraudsniffers have to clear before anyone should take them seriously. the first is cleared by those who even try to come up with something convincing, and that is the alleged fraud has to involved something seemingly out of the place in this election...

    the second hurdle, and the one that no one seems to have gotten over yet, is providing evidence that a county or state or precinct (probably the best level to test on...) has shifted it's votes from the 2000 or 1988 (last time a Republican won before 2000) levels.

    it's not enough to see a district's high democratic registration and a lopsided win for bush. you see, there are these things called dixiecrats and republican districts are more likely to have certain types of voting machine b/c they're richer and on and on and on... you ALSO need to show that your "anomalies" HAVEN'T happened in those same counties in the past. that even as the statistics seem squirrely, that this squirreliness is itself at all unusual.

    so, fraudsniffers, do trend lines for the counties or districts you think contained fraud, and we'll see what that turns up.

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 12:32:00 AM PDT

    •  yet no one to date has countered the (none / 1)

      point he's making that the variance only swings wildly in districts with optiscan machines. Your point would be correct only if all the Dixiecrat precincts had optiscan machines.

      That's kind of hard to believe.

      Look at these people! They suck each other! They eat each other's saliva and dirt! -- Tsonga people of southern Africa on Europeans kissing.

      by upstate NY on Sun Nov 14, 2004 at 05:58:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also, there's this analysis: (4.00 / 8)

      Excerpted from consortiumnews

      While agreeing with our analysis that Bush pulled off the difficult task of winning more votes in Florida than the number of registered Republicans, the Post accuses us of overlooking the obvious explanation that many independents, "Dixiecrats" and other Democrats voted for Bush.

      What we found, however, led us to report that Bush's vote tallies were statistically improbable - though not impossible. Contrary to the Post's claim, we did take into account the Dixiecrat element, which is why we didn't focus on the Bush totals from Florida's panhandle or the smaller, rural counties.

      Our analysis found that of the 13 Florida counties where Bush's vote total exceeded the number of registered Republicans for the first time, only two were counties with fewer than 100,000 registered voters. In 2000, Bush's vote total exceeded the number of registered Republicans in 34 counties - not 32 as the Post inaccurately reported - but in 2004, this total shot up to 47 counties.

      Rather than a rural surge of support, Bush actually earned more than seven out of 10 new votes in the 20 largest counties in Florida. Many of these counties are either Democratic strongholds - such as Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach - or they are swing counties, suc