Daily Kos

'Don't Mourn, Organize'

Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:10:13 AM PDT

OK. I read thousands of comments and dozens of Diaries last night and this morning. And you know something? I’m going to forget I read most of them. Just erase them from memory along with the names of those who posted them. Chalk them up to adrenaline crashes, too much rage and reefer and booze.

Because what I found in my reading was a plethora of bashing Christians, bashing Kerry, bashing gays, bashing Edwards, bashing Kos, bashing America and bashing each other. As well as a lot of people saying they’re abandoning the Democrats, abandoning politics, abandoning the country. This descent into despair and irrationality and surrender puts icing on the Republican victory cake.

Why were we in this fight in the first place? Because terrible leaders are doing terrible things to our country and calling this wonderful. Because radical reactionaries are trying to impose their imperialist schemes on whoever they wish and calling this just. Because amoral oligarchs are determined to enhance their slice of the economic pie and calling this the natural order. Because flag-wrapped ideologues want to chop up civil liberties and call this security. Because myopians are in charge of America’s future.

We lost on 11/2. Came in second place in a crucial battle whose damage may still be felt decades from now. The despicable record of our foes makes our defeat good reason for disappointment and fear. Even without a mandate over the past four years, they have behaved ruthlessly at home and abroad, failing to listen to objections even from members of their own party. With the mandate of a 3.6-million vote margin, one can only imagine how far their arrogance will take them in their efforts to dismantle 70 years of social legislation and 50+ years of diplomacy.

Still, Tuesday was only one round in the struggle. It’s only the end if we let it be. I am not speaking solely of challenging the votes in Ohio or elsewhere – indeed, I think even successful challenges are unlikely to change the ultimate outcome, which is not to say I don’t think the Democrats should make the attempt. And I’m not just talking about evaluating in depth what went wrong, then building on what was started in the Dean campaign to reinvigorate the grassroots of the Democratic Party, although I also think we must do that. I’m talking about the broader political realm, the realm outside of electoral politics that has always pushed America to live up to its best ideals and overcome its most grotesque contradictions.

Not a few people have spoken in the past few hours about an Americanist authoritarianism emerging out of the country’s current leadership. I think that’s not far-fetched. Fighting this requires that we stick together, not bashing each other, not fleeing or hiding or yielding to the temptation of behaving as if “what’s the use?”

It’s tough on the psyche to be beaten.Throughout our country’s history, abolitionists, suffragists, union organizers, anti-racists, antiwarriors, civil libertarians, feminists and gay rights activists have challenged the majority of Americans to take off their blinders. Each succeeded one way or another, but not overnight, and certainly not without serious setbacks.

After a decent interval of licking our wounds and pondering what might have been and where we went wrong, we need to spit out our despair and return – united - to battling those who have for the moment outmaneuvered us. Otherwise, we might just as well lie down in the street and let them flatten us with their schemes.
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  •  Why Don't... (3.80 / 5)

    "We lost on 11/2. Came in second place in a crucial battle whose damage may still be felt decades from now."

    Why don't we wait and see how many provisional ballots are out there in Ohio?

    Maybe there are 150,000.  Maybe there are 250,000.  No one knows.

    Count every vote!

    •  MB, Stop Playing the LOSER! (3.20 / 5)

      Gore didn't lose. We wimped Out.

      No way the Bushies won. This is another attempt to steal an election.

      CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

      by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:13:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  EXACTLY! (none / 0)


        Time for Democrats to get out there and be SHRILL, for once.

        "They announced the same thing in 2000, and they're at it again...We here at the Kerry Campaign, and supporters who constitute a substantial slice of the nation, are NOT convinced."

        •  CAN WE SAVE THE MOURNING, for (4.00 / 2)

          That hour in which Kerry concedes.

          Or does MeteorBlades know what the real vote count was in Ohio??

          What a bunch of defeatists. We knew they were going to try and steal Ohio. They go for it. And our leading blog rolls over and says, "Do Me up the Ass!" wtf.

          CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

          by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:28:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, very SHRILL, very angry (none / 1)

          The Repugs have proved that what works is anger and negative attacks.  Our leaders have to stand up and start really telling the truth about what is happening.  The Bush family doesn't see politics as public service.  They see the presidency as an opportunity for personal enrichment.  They have already plundered our treasury.  What's next?  The world.  Does anyone doubt there will be a draft now?  Is there any doubt that other countries will be attacked?  Will our democracy survive?  I admit, I'm afraid it won't.  I know I sound SHRILL, and I don't care!  The time has come to really stand up and be counted, stand up and fight back!

          There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

          by Boston Boomer on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:35:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anger at the DNC (4.00 / 2)

            It is time, and past time that we dismantled the DNC, tossed out its tired, failed leadership, and built a better party.  For the past four years, John Kerry, and every other "Democrat" in the House and Senate gave GWB a free ride, it cost them in the mid terms, and it has now cost them again.  Terry McAuliffe must be fired, and never given a job with the Democratic party again.  His policy of "be moderate, right leaning Democrats, try to act more Republican" is an obvious failure.

            Why should people vote for right leaning Democrats?  We've already got a Republican party, we need the Democrats to act more Democrat, not more Republican.

            The revolution begins internally, Terry McAuliffe must be removed from power; then, and only then, will the Democrats have a chance.  Similarly, Bob Kerry (Mr. "If you can contest the election, don't") and every other wimpocrat like him needs to be replaced with someone with the will to fight.

            I see the election of GWB as a blessing in disguise, it is the wake up call to the Democratic party that their right-leaning "centerist" plan doesn't work.  Let's see some real Democrats running in the next mid-terms.

            "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 2, 2003

            by gaijin99 on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:45:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (none / 0)

              Exactly. The "youth vote" failed to show up because the Dems have been unable to convince the cynics they are any different from the GOP.
            •  How Bush Won (none / 0)

              You are right, Bush embraced the neo-con mantle and he energized his base. Kerry was focused on being a centrist in an attempt to appeal to moderates. And that is ultimately our problem, the swing voters don't want someone they agree with - they don't know what they think - they want someone who acts like he is in charge and certain of his positions, whatever they may be.

              I often disagree with people who called Clinton a centrist, he ran on a platform that included allowing gays to be openly gay in the military and on national health care, those seem like pretty liberal positions to me. People respected his commitment to his positions.

              •  Clinton might have, as you say.... (none / 1)

                "ran on a platform that included allowing gays to be openly gay in the military and on national health care"

                ....but he fulfilled NEITHER. As George the 1st proved, a campaign promise unfulfilled is nothing more than that.

                "Don't ask, don't tell" is HARDLY encouraging gays to come out of the closet, especially if there are still disciplinary actions taken against them (which there is if they are sexually active). The policy is literally "don't ask" in order to not exclude gays from service and "don't tell" so gays won't be disqualified from service.

                Nor did he succeed in any way on this issue of national health care. Hillary, being the face of it, IMHO created REAL issues for many people, not excluding the whole spector of anything even smelling like "SOCIALIZED" anything. There's still way too much American fear of communism/socialism for anything that smells of it to pass w/ the vast majority of Americans. This was especially true in 1993-1994 when they really pushed this issue....the Soviet Union had only collapsed 2-3 years prior. IMHO, it will take decades, if ever, for Americans to ever have anything like the NHS of the UK because of all the RED paranoia this society was fed for most of the 20th century.

                On the former issue, they crapped out, on the latter issue, their reach exceeded their grap!

                These are my opinions/observations, of course.....but I'd actually say that Clinton was more of a centrist/conservative Dem when you look at the policies he actually enacted closely.

              •  I don't know if we would have won this election (none / 0)

                any way you cut it.  However, I do know that, if we ever again waste time trying to run someone based on who looks "Presidential", or the least "offensive", or "anybody but the incumbent", we will lose again and again.

                In other words, when you have nothing to lose, but everything to gain, go for the real one.

                White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

                by nolalily on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 06:21:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Why we don't see real Dems... (none / 0)

              ...is that there isn't much room to run on the Left. The Scaife-ites have worked for decades to frame all our important political issues in ways that leave us no viable progressive position.

              Until we reverse that, we won't see any real Dems running, because real Dems won't be able to win.

            •  What you can do. (none / 0)

              Right now, go to http://democracyforamerica.com/ and sign up to give a monthly recurring donation.

              We can replace the dead institutions of Democratic power that have led us astray.  And we will.

              Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

              by ubikkibu on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:59:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Blessing? (none / 0)

              Blessing in disguise??  Wake up call to the democratic party?  Didn't people say that about Nader and Gore's loss in 2000?  Didn't people say that after the senate hammering of 2002?  How much more of this shit can we take?  I've had quite enough blessings, thank you.

              "Efficiency is the steak. Renewables are the sizzle." --Carl Pope, Sierra Club

              by Red Herring on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 06:16:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly, Nader (none / 0)

                In 2000, the Democrats had an easy scapegoat with Nader.  They were able to say "well, our policy of being Republican-lite is a good policy, it was just that nasty old Nader who messed things up".  There is no such easy out now.  There is only the harsh reality that the American people don't want a Republican-lite party.

                I have only a mild dislike for George W. Bush, he's my political enemy nothing more or less.  But for Terry McAulfee and every single member of the DNC and DLC I have a seething incandescent hatred.  They are either incompetent, or traitors, or both.  It was obvious during the Clinton presidency that the Republican-lite approach was a failure, and they kept up with it.

                But we cannot shift the blame to Nader this time, the blame must rest where it clearly belongs: the Democratic party elite.  Throw them all out.

                "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 2, 2003

                by gaijin99 on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 02:51:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Crap - Super Troll Rating zaps my reply! (4.00 / 6)

      OK. Last time I reply to a post then give it a Super Troll rating.

      Let's try this again.

      I'm staying in this country. Something about being a vet (like Kos) that makes it so you can bear living in shit.

      Ok, let's just say "Welcome to the Fucktard States of America" and get to work.

      The battle is just beginning people. No one said this would be easy.

      Now is when we find out who the REAL Patriots are.

      (Missouri 2nd Congressional District)

      The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

      by fugitive on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:17:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmm (2.75 / 4)

        Well ...  It seems to me overwhelmingly likely that the election goes to Bush.  Kerry lost, but we successfully participated in our system.  The sun rises, a new day begins, "red states" are so far away from here that the chance of me ever meeting one of their denizens beyond their bizarre and hurtful tourism of the WTC site is quite low.  Life goes on.

        What really disturbed me last night was how unprepared people were for losing.  Folks, it's not too late now to start getting your emotions in line.

        Welcome to the Great Foreclosure.

        by bink on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:26:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  overwhelmingly??!! (none / 1)

          please take look in your dictionary for the definition of that word.  It seems to me you're either a troll or you have no recollection of past (pre-Diebold) elections.  like 2000, it boils down to disputed states that are well within the MOF (margin of fraud).  the only think that I find "overwhelming" about this election is the lack of fight of some on the people on this blog.

          "I've opposed this war since it was just a malignant smirk on George Bush's face." -- Billmon 10/18/06

          by tsurube on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:55:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I disagree with one thing (none / 0)

          We didn't successfully participate in the process if they stole the election - again. The fact that Bush is up 5 points in every area with no paper trail, whereas the exit polls match for those places with verifiable votes, the whole shady CNN and MSNBC revision of the exit polls - these things do not point to successful participation in any process except being bent over without benefit of lubrication.

          When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. -Benjamin Franklin

          by MissAnneThrope on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:00:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Accept (none / 0)

            Yes.  I accept your comment.  I guess I am sort of waiting for data to arrive ...  I haven't seen anything conclusive yet about the election being stolen.  There might have been some funny business, or worse ...  Personally, I am going to wait and see what unfolds today.

            While I do believe that it is overwhelmingly likely that Bush is our next president, I don't believe that this was an overwhelming defeat.  There was no landslide.  Kerry got forty-seven percent of popular votes and held nearly all of the major economic engines and centers of wealth in the country.

            This might be a defeat, but it is not a devastating loss.  In my view.

            Welcome to the Great Foreclosure.

            by bink on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:09:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it is a total loss now and forever (none / 0)

              ...if we allow Diebold machines to maintain their foothold.   My bet is they were used to "massage" this election.  Even if Kerry is eventually forced to concede defeat we must demonized these machines, bring them to the forefront of the national discourse so that they won't be around to magically grow more right wing voters in the 2006/8 elections.
              •  Call the Election ILLEGITIMATE... (none / 1)

                B/C it was.

                CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

                by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:16:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Yep (none / 1)

                Voting machine reform is a big deal.  We need to make this a top priority.

                Welcome to the Great Foreclosure.

                by bink on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:23:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Diebold (none / 0)

                Agreed! The question is, how do we prove it? Just hollering about fraud only pisses off half the nation. Someone needs to push and push hard for full investigation of these machines and present actual proof if there was wrongdoing. If it's true Bush is the winner, I believe that could be due to the Diebold machines being trained to eat some votes. Is it really so farfetched to think that the counting mechanism could be programmed to throw out, say, one out of every 500 Kerry votes? Just enough to cut a close margin in the opposite direction of where so many indicators showed the margin lay (in Kerry's favor)?
      •  Time Cover says... (none / 1)

        I hope to die laughing.

        by altoid on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:07:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  IT GOT TOO INTENSE (none / 0)

        ..for me last night and I searched for something "escapist" on the tube.  I was pretty certain that what would come next was just what KOS wrote brilliantly about in this message.   Earlier when things looked brighter I noticed many gleefully enjoying the freeper/trolls "eating their own" so I was pretty sure it wouldn't take long for the worms to turn.   How does it help if we swipe at one another?   We are in a HUGE FIGHT...much progress made from where I sit in mobilizing the "faithful" (yikes, I hate using that term).  The next four years will be HELL with Bush re-selected for sure...but we have to become engaged in making it difficult for them to roll us back to the 50's which I remember all too well!   A good friend called from Florida this morning to help bring me back to some sense of what we must do next.   Find our cause, support it and fight on!  Still this cloudy, gray day in the southern tier of NYS makes it hard to get the feeling of saddness under control.    
    •  If there ARE 250,000 votes ... (3.50 / 2)

      on provisional ballots and Kerry gets 75% of them, he still loses Ohio.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:22:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rob W of any semblance of credibility... (4.00 / 4)

        Do you really believe that the numbers are fair and accurate? I don't.

        Bush has been one big liar. People do not trust him. Why not challenge him and the Repugs to the bitter end?

        They cheated their way to victory, AGAIN. The Cable News Networks are complicit. And somehow we are still willing to fight them according to their terms?

        CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

        by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:27:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree (none / 0)

          Well, I can't say it is legitimate but for sure until we can prove it you have pick of the pieces and learn from the data how to be stronger next time.

          FRUSTRATION will get me NO where. (I have to write that a thousand times for my homework)

      •  SAYS WHO??? (4.00 / 4)

        It is not only these few votes...

        Why are you falling for the oldest trick in the book. Everyone is focused on these few ballots when we need to have the WHOLE DAMN STATE audited.

        Get a gripe DUDE!!!

        and you know damn well I am not the most enamored person of Kerry or Edwards but I am damn sure not going to give up this easy.

        DLC Centrism assumes that if Democrats move to the right the Republicans are going to stand still.

        by Genf on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:31:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  DON'T LISTEN TO CORPORATE MEDIA! (none / 0)

          CNN is not the WaPo, nor the NYTimes.

          CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

          by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:32:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  true, (none / 0)

            but who audits the auditors....

            obviously we cannot allow this to happen, but I have little optimism with respect to who is in control now... which is why you guys need to demand a new election, on paper ballots, run by the UN.... c'mon, make that the movement...

            -9.13, -7.79 When you pray, move your feet. -African Proverb

            by L0kI on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:21:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I cannot believe the tone of so many on this blog! (4.00 / 4)

          I'm a veteran of the anti-war protests of the 60's.  I can't believe what I'm reading here.  What we need is people marching in the streets.  We need a read left in this country again.  We need to be visible, not skulk away.  

          If the national Democratic "leaders" aren't fighting for us, we need to replace them.  Lets get more Obamas in there and get rid of the dinosaurs who have sold out and won't fight back against Bush.  

          We must organize and we must take back the media the same way the right wingers did.  I remember when there were lots of liberal talk shows and real left-wingers commenting on TV.  

          Most of all, we need to organize and march in the streets if necessary.  I can't believe after all that has been done to damage our economy and our democracy in the past four years that the cities are burning like they did in 1968.

          There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

          by Boston Boomer on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:44:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Freudian slip, I guess (none / 0)

            I meant I can't understand why the cities aren't burning.

            There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

            by Boston Boomer on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:46:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So right (none / 0)

            I'm another Boston boomer and I remember the fight then. We need fire, organization, and focus- any without the others is useless. It's what Kerry did with Vietnam vets. We do come out of this with resources. The web is our medium, and we've shown we can channel it. We have to take on the press whether it's the "fair and honest" media or the Limbaughs and Sinclairs.
            •  We had this discussion last night (none / 1)

              Although we can claim approximately 50% of the nation, most of that 50% is not as politically astute as many here.   The movement needs to continue to amplify, step by step, notch by notch, slowly but surely.  Otherwise, most of that 50% will move back to the right.  

              Someone who called into C-Span this morning said that people who voted for Kerry did so as a vote against Bush. I believe this is true and that's why we lost.  The caller also said that he didn't believe the dems knew anything about their nominees.  Once again, I'd agree.  The exception were the people who stood behind Dean.  For the most part, those people were actively looking for someone to beat Bush.

              In order to beat the neocons, our 50% cannot remain complacent.  We have to know who our elected officials are as well as their challengers.  

              Dean had the right idea.  The movement of the 60s didn't get started overnight.  Unfortunately, it took the 50s and the Viet Nam War to finally break through American's complacency.

              Don't expect revolution in the streets just yet.  I believe that would be counterproductive.  The anger is justified, what we do with it has to be methodical and to the point - not scattered and reactionary.

              White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

              by nolalily on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 06:02:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Re: If there ARE 250,000 votes ... (4.00 / 4)

        "If there ARE 250,000 votes on provisional ballots and Kerry gets 75% of them, he still loses Ohio."

        True.  But what if there are 350,000 ballots?  No one knows how many there are yet.  What if the provisional ballots are overwhelmingly from Democratic precincts and Kerry gets 85%?

        Count every damn vote.

      •  How do you figure that? (none / 1)

        The vote spread in Ohio is 136,221.

        And that's not counting the paper ballots or the voters who were still voting as of 3:30 am.

        It's also not counting the provisional ballots which were challenges by the Republican Poll Challengers. The majority of the provisional ballots were in majority black precincts.

        The Ohio SOS said that in 2000, 90% of the provisional ballots were real votes.  

        So, 90% of 250,000 = 225,000 real votes

        Kerry would only need about 62% of them.

        If the number of provisional ballots is closer to 200,000 then Kerry would need 77% of them.

        Shouldn't we wait until we know the situation on the ground? We won't know much for sure until tomorrow afternoon. Let's wait.

        •  The only problem is ... (none / 0)

          ...that if Kerry gets 62% of those 225,000 real votes, Bush gets 38% of them.

          Add Kerry's provisionals to his other total and Bush's provisionals to his other total and Bush still wins.

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:48:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO. (none / 1)

            Why are you being so defeatist?

            Can't we start talking about how things don't add up?

            Or are we so used to being Losers?

            CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

            by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:50:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree... (none / 1)

              I'm watching Imus with all the analysis and I think they should wait for the Ohio count and all of the other states to come in with their full assessment.

              Kerry could take New Mexico, the otherr close states, Ohio and end up with 272 EVs.  He might not but he has to try every avenue.

              If it turns out that Kerry concedes, we now have mid-term elections to think about and work on.  We have to get congress back now.  I don't even know what the net gain is this morning but even if Kerry ends up losing, we'll go on working and hoping.

              You all have been stellar!  I don't want to see a one of you give up, we still have work.

              He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.

              by shesgg on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:19:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, but (none / 0)

            that assumes that those votes go to Bush.  It's difficult to see those votes going to Bush when most of them are in majority black precincts.  Why would the Republican Challengers have singled out these voters? Perhaps they had lists of which ones to challenge? It seems unlikely they would challenge Republican voters.

            Also, we don't know the status of the paper ballot count yet.

            You may be correct.  But I'd rather wait until tomorrow and see how things settle out. In the fog of elections, a lot of things slip under the radar.

            •  Eh? (none / 0)

              If 62% of the votes go to Kerry, and the other 38% don't go to Bush,
              who do they go to?  If you assume that 62% of the votes go to Kerry,
              then you are also assuming that 38% go to Bush -- it's simple logic.
              •  No (none / 0)

                The 62% is a threshold number.  Kerry should do much better than that.  

                In which majority black precincts has Bush received 38% of the vote?

                And if Kerry only got 62%, the other 38% could be split between 3rd party candidates, mismarks, tossed out after further challenges, etc. It doesn't necessarily follow that they are automatically Bush votes.

                Another point is that the Bush margin could be whittled down by the paper ballot count. We just don't know yet what the situation is in Ohio. It's too early to tell.

                •  What's wrong with you? (none / 1)

                  MB wrote "If there ARE 250,000 votes
                  on provisional ballots and Kerry gets 75% of them, he still loses Ohio."

                  He was right.  You wrote "How do you figure that? ....
                  Kerry would only need about 62% of them."

                  You were wrong on the math, period.  Now you're coming up with
                  "it doesn't necessarily follow that they are automatically Bush votes"
                  after the fact to try to wriggle out of a mistake.  Bush has won
                  in more ways than one, it seems.

                  •  No .... I based my reply on experience (none / 0)

                    Anyone who has sat on an election board dealing with disputed or challenged ballots might see the mathematical result being touted as counter to what happens in real life.  That's why I didn't follow the argument.  

                    I've sat on more than two dozen election boards.  I was basing my reply on my experience with 3 different elections in which an opponent used a strategy of targeted challenges.

                    In all three cases, the majority of the challenged ballots were decided overwhelmingly for the challenger.  In fact, in one race, where the opponent had a strategy of challenging voters, he came up with only 11 additional votes while his opponent received 83 out of 121 challenged ballots.  The other ballots were either disallowed or assigned to spoilage.

                    An election board that deals with these types of situations does so in a political context, although the people involved try to be as fair as possible so that as many ballots are counted as possible.  However, one cannot escape politics since the board is required by law to have both a Republican judge and a Democratic judge.  Only the two judges can vote on whether the ballot is counted or not.  So, the process ends up being somewhat of a trade-off process.  You may allow this ballot but not that one.  And it's all done within the rules.  Its a messy and contentious process fraught with way too much politics b/c the outcome of a race may hang in the balance.  Thankfully, strategies of challenging voters has largely become a thing of the past.

                    I really hated to see it raise its ugly head in this election. Although, if used correctly, it can help ensure that our elections are clean.

                    But perhaps I should have written this longer response in reply instead of short-cutting it. It seemed obvious to me, based on experience, that the additional votes probably wouldn't go to Bush.  However, I was basing that asumption on the fact that CBS News and the Kerry campaign were reporting that the provisional ballots were in predominatly majority black precincts.

                    Since the original post, I obtained the county level details from the SOS regarding the provisional ballots.

                    According to my analysis:

                    There are 70,200 provisional ballots in Bush counties (counties Bush won) or 45% of them.

                    There are 85,228 provisional ballots in Kerry counties or almost 55% of them.

                    Another issue is spoilage and undercounts.

                    There were 92,672 undercounts/spoilage. They were distributed as follows: Over 53% in Bush counties while almost 47% were in Kerry counties.

                    I would agree with you that among provisional ballots in a normal voting situation, they would be as likely to be Bush votes as Kerry votes.  However, in a targeted strategy of challenging voters, that would not be true. And based on my experience it has not been true.  

                    The distribution of the provisional ballots matters a great deal. If the majority of them had been in Democratic leaning areas, I would have expected Kerry to receive a large number of them, given that they survived challenge.  

                    However, it is entirely possible that quite a few of those provisional ballots in the Bush counties may actually be people who may have registered but not had their names on the election books. I now know that in my own county, a lot of names of newly registered voters were left off of the books because of the sheer volume of newly registered voters and the chaos that ensued.

                    So, as always, it helps to have more information.  

            •  it depends... (none / 0)

              on how many provisional ballots stem from targeted challenges.  I'm sure there are urban precincts that went close to 80/20 (if not more) for K/E even though county-wide numbers are less skewed.  
          •  "math" = "defeatist" (none / 1)

            it seems, judging from the flak that you're taking. Keep slogging, MB. We need to retain our clarity. It cant be easy to take the heat from the disappointed masses, but you need to stay strong and continue speaking dispassionate truth to the facts. Hang in there.
      •  75% of 250,000 is 187,500 . . . (none / 0)

        the current margin (9am CNN) in Ohio is 136,221. Looks like plenty of room.
    •  on Kerry's blog (none / 0)

      at blog.kerry.com  says  more than 250,000 ballots are waiting to be counted...  so it is not over..    that's what Cahill says..
      Ohio Sec of State says 11 days

      but Blackwell told(?) Bush team that it is insurmountable?

      I think Bush is pulling nazi media pressure..  sheesh..

      CNN and CBS is staying put and won't call Ohio for Bush yet..

      MSNBC says Nevada, Wisc, Iowa, NM, and NH are too close to call and declare Ohio Bush winner.    Fox sleep in same bed with MSNBC but call NH Kerry winner and other "too close to call"

      abc says  NM, Iowa, Wisc and Ohio is up in the air..

    •  Not only Ohio (none / 0)

      I am in VA, and I wonder about the vote count here. It doesn't make sense. A few local races were oddly skewed, and I don't accpet the presidential tally at all. ALL close states need to be examined carefully

      Republicanus non carborundum

      by azureblue on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:41:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Local post-polling needed in every county (none / 0)

        Verbal and random surveys are needed by small groups of trusted individuals whose results are segregated to deter tampering.  This should be done at the level of geographical regions for which historical data is available.  Then, cross-reference previous poll lines and wait times with visual surveys of yesterday's turnout.  Use every available statistical method for correlating the scale of yesterday's turnout with the scale of previous turnout.

        This is standard baselining for project management and estimation, applied to voting estimates and actuals.  Don't do this with a sense of sour grapes. Do it with a sense of preparation for 2006 congressional elections and 2008 presidential elections.  Collect data independently and with the smallest number of trusted people in each group. Protect the integrity of collected data until it can be tabulated and audited.

        See PairPair for one of many auditing algorithms for groups of temporary workers (like repurposing GOTV "volunteers" as post-poll surveyors).  

        The defenders of freedom are now statisticians and mathematicians.

    •  stil do not get it? (1.14 / 7)

      you still do not have a clue - look at the map - it is those states with the entitlement mentality that voted for kery -
      •  You misspelled his name (none / 1)

        "it is those states with the entitlement mentality that voted for kery"

        It's K-E-R-R-Y

        John Kerry

        And by "entitlement mentality," do you mean those states that contribute more than they receive (marked in blue on the map), or those that receive more than they contribute (marked in red)?

        "We need to retain our clarity, stay strong, and continue speaking dispassionate truth to the facts. The only alternative to hanging in is just hanging."

  •  Are you actually calling this a LOSS???? (3.66 / 9)

    Why are you conceding when Kerry hasn't yet?

    DLC Centrism assumes that if Democrats move to the right the Republicans are going to stand still.

    by Genf on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:11:03 AM PDT

    •  I'M with GENF... GET A BACKBONE! (3.33 / 3)

      If they hadn't stolen it in 2000, they might have the credibility to pull this off.

      Fool Me Once,
      Shame on You,
      Fool Me Twice,
      Shame on Me.

      CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

      by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:15:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn right! (4.00 / 3)


      No concession.

      But I'm happy that Daschle is out and we're going to have a REAL Senate leader, for once.

      I'm thrilled that Shrum will, having fubared messages and campaigns for far too long, will go retire.

      Time to rebuild, and be a real opposition party.  And when this Presidential thing turns out, we may have a damn good bully pulpit from which to do so.

    •  I'm with Genf, too (4.00 / 5)

      Why allow Bush to claim victory now? After all we have put into this election, why should we just roll over and say 'gee, let's clean our own house.' i understand why irrational vitriol from one's own side can be upsetting but let's be rationally upset and mobilized and continue to do what we can to insure that this is a genuinely fair election.

      I, for one, think the issue of the Diebold machines needs to be pursued.

      http://digitalmedea.blogspot.com/

      by DiMe on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:25:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tactically (4.00 / 2)

      I agree:  No concession until all votes are counted.  But purely as a tactical measure.  It seems me to be extraordinarily unlikely that Kerry can pull a victory out of the current situation.  We can sit around doing "what ifs" or we can move forward to the next phase of things.

      I'm all for waving pom-poms, but the earth is still turning and it would be a pity to lose all momentum now because we have hit a bump in the road.  I know that this is a tough defeat, but there are more races around the corner.

      Welcome to the Great Foreclosure.

      by bink on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:47:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So You know what happened in OHIO, (none / 0)

        I mean on the ground? You have figured out why the exit polls were wrong, (And it wasn't Ken Blackwell?)

        Give KE04 some breathing room. If you don't quit on them, they will have the time to figure it all out.

        CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

        by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:18:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If there's a recount in Ohio, (4.00 / 4)

        I'm willing to go out there and storm the counting rooms like the Repugs did in 2000!  Who's with me?  

        There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

        by Boston Boomer on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:51:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  you lost (1.00 / 3)

      because the dems lost -
  •  They Try to STEAL another Election... (3.50 / 8)

    AND YOU WANT TO CONCEDE?!?

    "We lost on 11/2. Came in second place in a crucial battle whose damage may still be felt decades from now. The despicable record of our foes makes our defeat good reason for disappointment and fear"-- MeteorBlades, RIP, 11/03/04

    You know the Kerry camp is looking to the Strong Left to see if we have ANY FUCKING BACKBONE. And a "leader" like you is making Intellectual arguments instead of KICKING AND FIGHTING?

    (Listening to Blackwell now, After Andy Card at 5:45AM).

    THE NUMBERS DON'T ADD UP. DOH!!! CRUNCH THE NUMBERS BEFORE YOU CAVE IN LIKE A FUCKING LOSING LIBERAL.

    C'Mon MB, we deserve better from you.

    CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

    by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:12:38 AM PDT

    •  This is not over (4.00 / 2)

      The exit polls don't match and the GOP is trying to steal another one!

      This is complete crap. There is no way this should be allowed again.

      •  Art of the STEAL not Art of the Deal. (none / 1)

        Last night I wrote and wrote and ERASED. My mind in a whirl of misery. All those folks that showed up at the polls did not come to vote for Bushwacker and we all know it. They stole the vote in 2000 and the've had four years to figure out how to perfect not the art of the deal but the art of the steal. They obviously have done it to us again.

        We have to organize and decide how to go after this. If this is to be the New American Revolution then so be it! It's not tea we dump in Boston Harbor but the Stolen Vote.

    •  Excuse me, perhaps you need ... (4.00 / 2)

      ...a course in reading comprehension. But impute things to me I didn't say. Yes, I think we've lost.

      But I specifically said we should challenge the votes in Ohio and elsewhere.

      I also don't think these challenges will alter the outcome. I shall be happy to be proved wrong.  

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:38:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  MB, You are wrong this time... (none / 1)

        I am a huge fan, and I am not going to quote you chunks of your diary.

        The Title however is "Don't Mourn, Organize".

        This entire Blog should be about how GW doesn't have the credibility to sell another challenged election to the American public.

        And About How the numbers don't add up. Damnit.

        We have credibility. W doesn't. Even if he wins, strip him of any sense of a mandate.

        We tried rolling over in 2000. Miserable Failure.
        STAND BY OUR FUCKING MAN.

        Do you really think they won this fair and square?

        CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

        by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:44:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No Mandate and No Legitimacy (none / 1)

          edwardbanderson above writes: "We have credibility. W doesn't. Even if he wins, strip him of any sense of a mandate."

          As much as we believe ourselves, I can't imagine that Joe Kansas will believe some liberal educated elites on the internets over what they see on the 6 o'clock news.

          Being right is not enough. We have to have proof.

          One thing to consider, however, is that while Joe Kansas might not be easily convinced, Joe International already hates Bush, and knows what a self-righteous imbecile he is. If we can publicize the theft of this election enough that the rest of the world is convinced the election was stolen - his ability to accomplish anything internationally will be severely compromised.

          I hope to god that we don't get another 4 years to prove how awful Bush et al are - but I'm in no mood to make those 4 years any easier for him. If the rest of the world is as sure as we are that he stole this thing, his attempts at world leadership will be laughed at.

          it's not much consolation at 4 in the morning, but every little bit helps.

          "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - Barack Obama

          by AikidoPilgrim on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:15:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You say, "We lost on 11/2." I DISAGREE.. (none / 1)

        Who says we lost besides the Bushies and the CORPORATE MEDIA WHORES?

        Oh, yeah, our Liberal??? Blog?

        DIG IN, DIG IN!

        CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

        by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:46:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  hmm (4.00 / 2)

        you didn't write "I think we've lost".
        you wrote "We lost on 11/2", as if it is already a fact.
        maybe you better edit it and change the wording a little bit...
      •  Yunno (none / 1)

        I do BLAME and want to BLAST a hell of a lot of people right now.

        The last fucking thing I want to hear is another Terry McAulliffe-like song and dance about we will do better next time.

        I had my guy and they fucking destroyed him and forced me to make allegences and loyalty oaths to Kerry. I gave my money and I voted and I got friends and family to vote.

        So don't you dare sit there and write that it is over. If you TRULY want to do something productive and proactive then keep your mouth shut until Kerry calls it.

        DLC Centrism assumes that if Democrats move to the right the Republicans are going to stand still.

        by Genf on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:53:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely Right (none / 0)

          If so prominent a liberal blogger as meteor blades is conceding the fight within the first 24 hours, then my initial impression was right.  I should have stuck to my guns and voted for Nader.  Here is the lesson for me.  Nader fought and fought even though he absolutely knew he was going to lose.  If the democratic party does not have that kind of tenacity, it's time to chuck them out and get some leaders who do.
      •  lookit- (none / 0)

        the fact that 11 states have just voted institutionally to discriminate against gay Americans should put to rest any thoughts that those same folks will somehow agree that the election should be closely examined.  There will be no outcry, no groundswell.

        So, what can we and should we do?

        1.  Start building alliances IMMEDIATELY with all of those Republican switchers out there.  We have a fabulous list to begin with, upon which we can build.  But we can't wait.
        2.  Start working on moderate Repubs in the Senate NOW -- we need those alliances, and they must be cultivated; they won't come to us.
        3.  Who do we prefer as minority Senate leader?  That jockeying has probably already begun.  Who will be the most effective?
        4.  Identify just a few key issues to which we can devote our time and resources.  If we're spread too thin, we won't accomplish anything.  Then we can move on to others. One Bush defeat may start to have a lovely steamroller effect.

        UNITED WE STAND!
        •  Gay marriage/Bush vote all one--all a fraud (none / 0)

          We need to find out if there is a correlation between Diebold (no paper trail) machines and Gay Marriage votes.  I believe we know there is a correlation between Bush Inc. getting 5% win and Diebolds.  I think there was massive but hard to detect fraud across the board.  In Oregon (all paper, by mail) they voted for Kerry but yes to banning Gay Marriage.  I have a feeling that's how it went down elsewhere, too--but it was changed--fraud occurred.  I think Kerry/Edwards should mount a general challenge against this election, not just OH.  Something's very, very wrong here.  Huge Dem mobilization, biggest ever; very successful; huge turnout--and the result is a Bush blowout?  No way.

          Yes, we need long term plans.  But challenging this election should be part of that plan. Diebold machines belong in Boston harbor.  

      •  But your tone is defeatist. (none / 1)

        If the Repugs were in this position, what would they be doing?  They'd be in court and on the streets.  We can re-evaluate and organize for the future after all the votes are counted and after the recounts.  We need a united front.  We were robbed and we're not going to take it anymore!

        There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious...that you've got to put your bodies on the gears...and make it stop. -- Mario Savio

        by Boston Boomer on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:53:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  umm, Meteor? (none / 0)

        reading through this increasingly tomelike thread, there are LOTS of interesting, creative ideas for going forward.  Is there any way to cull them and to put them in their own diary or something?  I'll help -- is there some kind of easy way to organize the posts from my end, or is it easier for the person who controls the front page...? :)
    •  Two ways to go. (none / 0)

      Okay, fight the good fight, etc. But if the Strong Left is so happy to clean up behind KE04, once again, and we can't regain the House or Senate: it's time for more political parties.

      People should work within the system, people should also be working to revamp it from a neutral space.

      There's plenty of work for everybody.

      -5.63, -4.41
      Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004.

      by Lexicon on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:27:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yea go ahead (1.79 / 24)

    Censoring me you fascist fucks.  You have become you're enemy.  You are the GOP, you are the Bush Admnistration.

    LETS NOT TAKE THIS SHIT GUYS.  WE NEEEEEEED ANOTHER CIVIL WAR.  THE SOUTH NEEDS TO BE PUT IN LINE--FUCK THEM.  FUCK THEIR BIBLE THUMPING WAYS.  THEY ARE SHALL PAY!

    -Rob

    •  Try decaf (3.60 / 5)

      I'm as pissed as you (I feel your pain). My mantra is "Welcome to the Fucktard States of America."

      Wait a few days. Turn your rage into LONG TERM action.

      The fight is just beginning. Grit your teeth. Tell the Rethug you work with "Good Luck."

      Then get back to the real work.

      (Missouri 2nd Congressional District)

      The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

      by fugitive on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:20:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Woah Brother wOAH! (none / 1)

      I don't think it's all down south. I think the supression and the vote has been taken from us ALL more than once now. This country I don't beleive is as deeply divided as we think it is. I think we've ALL been hoodwinked again

      Look at TN and the vote is as deeply divided as ever it was. We're not ALL Rapture Swilling Hicks down here and what you're twirling stinks as much as the man with the evil grin thats going to have four more years if we don't ORGANIZE and somehow challenge the process.

      •  yes (none / 0)

        We need to fight this election to the bitter end, but whether we win or lose, the lesson to learn is that we need to find out how to WIN the south and the midwest.  There are so many people in the south and midwest who are real supporters of the Democrats, we need to mobilize them and turn those states back into swing states.  Remember that most of our agenda of fairness, tolerance, respect, responsibility, good stewardship of our land and the world is what Jesus advocated in the Bible.  "Bible thumpers" are our logical allies, if we just start the conversation.  (N.B. I'm agnostic leaning buddhist, so don't worry about a hidden agenda)  We need to stop giving up on these states and start fighting for them.  It's just like the fight against  OBL and islamist fundamentalist terrorism: the most important thing is to go out there and provide an alternative to stupid religiosity, show them that putting their politics where their faith is is voting Democrat.  Look at Clinton's abortion stance, "Safe, legal, rare".  This accomplished more for the anti-abortion agenda than anything Bush has done, but we aren't selling it to the people who matter.  We must win back the south.
    •  Um the South? (none / 0)

      don't forget your precious "midwest" and their value-based voting.

      Dems need to get ready to take back Congres, so we can fight radical right Supreme Court appointees.

      -5.63, -4.41
      Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004.

      by Lexicon on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:30:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We're IN a civil war (none / 0)

      But as others have commented, it's not north/south, no matter what the map looked like on TV last night. It's a cultural war and it's going on in every state. And it's a three-way war: traditional, modern, post-modern. Post-moderns fall easy. It's a young movement, hideously disorganized and won't grow up. The modern monolith is fractured and is killing itself along with the rest of the world (global warming, e.g.). The traditional is dying of old age. They're terrified and are fighting against the "dying of the light." So, it's not going to go gently. It has the added advantage of modern medicine, and massive inherited wealth, both of which have abnormally prolonged its lifespan. One of the first steps for those in the modern and post-modern armies is to try to cut these traditionals off from the resources that sustain and increase its lifespan.
  •  First of all, fight the DLC (3.28 / 7)

    All night long, the spin has been that the Democrats are too far to the left, especially on cultural issues. (Read: You should have nominated the sanctimonious Joe Lieberman).

    The DLC is going try to take over the DNC, like the Clintons and McAuliffe did after the 2000 election.

    Starting today, we have to fight them. Other battles will follow.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:13:09 AM PDT

    •  Thank you (3.40 / 5)

      Today we also start the "Joe Must Go" Campaign.

      These bastards have all but destroyed the Democratic party and the still are trying to put the last nail in the coffin.

      DLC Centrism assumes that if Democrats move to the right the Republicans are going to stand still.

      by Genf on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:16:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Joe-Mentum (none / 1)


        That's all I wanted to say.  Joe-mentum...

        While we're out there cleaning house, toss that bit of Senatorial Bilge over the side...

        •  Joe-more, not Joe-mentum. (none / 1)

          •  Dems have to fight this one--it's do or die! (none / 1)

            The Dems let the Diebold thing go by.  They could possibly have fixed it, if they'd listened to the grass roots--although they've been dealing with scorched earth fascists in the Congress. I'm not sure they could have fixed it.  But they didn't try.  They should've raised holy hell. This election is invalid for that reason alone (no paper trail, no audit possible). Then add in all the other stuff. Peeeee-uuu!

            I'm not criticizing the Dems on the election.  They did a good job, and got defrauded.  And here we are again, but this time they have nothing to lose.  I hope it radicalizes some people.

            Look at the bigger picture. How can Bush Inc. NOT have stolen the election?  Look at 9/11, Iraq, the Halliburton-Cheney war profiteering, the whole ugly, lying beast that is them.  You think the people approved of that?  I don't.

    •  CRUNCH THE NUMBERS... (3.16 / 6)

      get a good-damned mathematician, then tell me the numbers are honest.

      At that point I'll throw in the towel.

      NO, actually, I'll wait for Kerry to say it's over.

      Thought this was a FIGHTING BLOG.

      IF I WANTED TO HANG OUT WITH LOSERS, I'd have stayed with BFA.

      CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

      by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:17:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The voter fraud of the GOP (4.00 / 3)

        Must be exposed. The numbers do not add up...the GOP is banking on 'vanishing' votes  again.

        It's time for some action. If Bush steals this again, I'm going to start a fund for serious independent investigations into voter supression in Florida, Ohio, and several other states.

        The GOP will do anything to remain in power.

        •  The Only COINCIDENCE is "W" (4.00 / 2)

          We knew they were trying to rig Ohio. We said it in advance.

          And Florida's 2004 results are obscene.

          THEY COULDN'T WIN IT. SO THEY ARE TRYING TO STEAL IT AGAIN.

          NO SURRENDER.

          CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

          by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:36:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Only agree on Terry. (3.20 / 5)

      Terry is an idiot with a loose mouth. Different factions in the dem party isn't the problem because the whole political spectrum is shifted to the right. You can thank 9-11 for that. When people are afraid and their security is threatened, they shift to the right...it's a defense mechanism.

      You're not going to somehow turn these people back to the far left in Dean/Kucinich land as long as insecurity persists. Look at the pop vote...3.5 mil margin in favor of the GOP.  Centrists and moderates were with the libs this election and still the people chose the right wing.

      Unfortunately the scare mongering has worked on most Americans. The question is how do you make them believe the right is not as safe as the left, or that the left can make them safer? You can't do that with an anti-war platform. Natural tendency of a cornered animal is to strike out (offense) when threatened. Today showed people are a lot more animal than reasonable.

      •  Sorry but (1.00 / 3)

        fuck you... (nerves frayed today and can't tolerate bullshit)

        If you think that Dean is "far left" then you are an idiot.

        DLC Centrism assumes that if Democrats move to the right the Republicans are going to stand still.

        by Genf on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:26:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  LOL! (1.33 / 9)

          Nutcases like you are what makes the dems weak. That's the trouble with dumbasses like you. You can't see that you're just the polar opposites of the absolute right-wing fascists. Your type is a socialist marxist. A leftie Alan Keyes. Neither is good for America.  Of course, the fascists tend to be better at your polarizing game than the marxists.

          Come out of your far orbit and pull America back to the comfortable middle. You right and left wing extremists are lunatics.  This is why centrists like me vote against either party whenever they get too much power. Currently I'm your ally, but in 10 years if the political powerbase is in Deanie land, I'm voting against you.

          Try throwing Dean on the ticket in 2008. Better get used to what you're feeling now because you'll have another helping of it.

      •  Dean is not "far left" (3.33 / 3)

        How are balanced budgets and health care for all adopted slowly on a pay-as-you-go is "far left?"

        How is protecting the environment far left (asking that for Teddy Roosevelt)?

    •  Damn straight! (3.25 / 4)

      See, I knew you and I agreed.

      Fuck accommodation. Fuck centrism.

      Tell the truth!

      We have met the enemy, and he is us. --Pogo (Walt Kelly)

      by d52boy on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:23:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time to gear up (3.50 / 2)

    The fight has just begun, the conversatives in this country will try to push anything in their right wing agendas now that they have large margins in both Houses of Congress. That may sound bleak, but we must stick together as Kos says. If we show a sign of weakness and being disloyal to each other, we lose, they win. It is as plain as that. Please do not give up and continue to fight on. I know it is tough for everyone right now, but take a few days to heal and get ready to continue to push our progressive agenda for the country.

    "Question Everything"

    by Zomanji on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:13:17 AM PDT

  •  those exact words... (4.00 / 3)

    ..."don't mourn, organise" have been in my head all morning.
    thanks for that.
  •  Thanks MB!! (3.25 / 4)

    The point of organizing and trading ideas here on dKos is to help build that grassroots organization for the future.

    The results last night are a dark disappointment. I haven't felt this low since 1994. But the thing to remember is that we still have to fight the GOP and their abuse of power. We still have to take back America.

    To anyone thinking of walking away from the fight I say this - think of our poor, think of those without healthcare, and think of our troops dying for Bush's empire. None of them can walk away from shitstorm Bush is throwing their way. I won't abandon them by being silent. I'll keep fighting for them and I hope all of you do too!

    - "You're Hells Angels, then? What chapter are you from?"
    - REVELATIONS, CHAPTER SIX.

    by Hoya90 on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:14:23 AM PDT

    •  It's is not Over until People like you (3.33 / 3)

      CONCEDE.

      Do you honestly believe GW fairly won FL, OH, and the Popular Vote?

      Where were the defections towards Bush? How did they pick up more new Voters than Kerry?

      Or are they LYING and CHEATING?

      CT-4 and CT-2! Two New England House races that Dems must win. www.farrellforcongress.com & www.sullivanforcongress.com

      by edwardbanderson on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:24:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm looking beyond the Presidential race (none / 1)

        to the relative drubbing we took in the House and the Senate. I really believed we were going to retake the Senate and make gains in the House. The opposite happened and it is CRITICAL to figure out why that happened.

        Even if Kerry is able to pull out a victory in OH, we're facing an even more rabid GOP Congress than before that will continue pushing a radical agenda.

        My point is that we need to keep fighting to win back the electorate to a progressive vision of America. Yesterday was only one battle in that effort and we clearly have a long way to go.

        My post was aimed at the significant minority on this site that is ready to throw in the towel completely.

        - "You're Hells Angels, then? What chapter are you from?"
        - REVELATIONS, CHAPTER SIX.

        by Hoya90 on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 05:09:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The problem is this (4.00 / 3)

      It's the poor its our troops and its all those who we think of, who are not thinking about themselves. Red States are poor states. People that live in dilapidated trailers stick Bush Cheneys signs in their yard. That's the problem. We care about them and they care about gays or the wedge issue of the day. It's crazy. Until dems address this we are screwed.
    •  The Authoritarian Poor (3.50 / 4)

      Regardless of whether the election was rigged, it's true that the Bush neocons have managed to gain undying, tooth-and-claw allegiance from the people who suffer the most from neocon policies. This didn't happen overnight. They couldn't have done this without their anti-gay legislation and anti-woman moral manipulation. They couldn't have done it without the fundamentalist and Catholic churches on their side. And they couldn't have done it if we had a decent educational system, one that produced students who can think, reason, and know when they are being manipulated. We definitely have our work cut out for us, and some of it is going to take more than four years

      Do not ask for a word's meaning; look at its use.

      by cmlorenz on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 04:36:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't give up. (4.00 / 4)

    If Bush sits in the oval office for another 4 years, the horrors that will be wrest upon this country make me very sad. Iraq-more and more soldiers will be sent to die for Bush's incompetence. Heck, Bush might even make up more stuff about another country and an imminent attack.

    Roe v. Wade will be overturned. No doubt here. Bush will appoint extremist judges. I worry about African Americans being stripped of their voting rights and our civil liberties being further eroded. Social security will be privatized. The poor and the middle class will not only have to send their children off to die in Iraq, they will see their taxes increase.

    Maybe this is what those "red staters" want. Or maybe they are just willfully uninformed.

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 03:15:32 AM PDT

    •  Iran already in Bush's sights (none / 0)

      With our military desperately overextended in Iraq Bush has again extended 6,500 troops tour of duty until January. There is no way this administration can maintain their military presence without invoking a new draft. It will come in January if Bush takes Ohio.

      Iran has already stated that they will not curb their nuclear ambitions. In their last congress they closed the session by chanting "Death to the United States." Iran, unlike Iraq, is a real threat to the security of this country. Bush, if the bastard steals this election, will have to invade Iran to halt the very real nuclear threat there.

      When this bunch of thugs start sending the sons and daughters off to be slaughtered in another conflict public opinion will change dramatically. But by then we will be completely isolated in the international community and our cemeteries will be filling up with the bodies of our children.