Daily Kos

Cliff Arnebeck: Ohio lawsuit to be filed Monday a.m.

Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 04:27:58 AM PDT

Randi Rhodes'  interview with Cliff Arnebeck can be heard here

It seems still to be the latest source of information so far on what is happening re the lawsuit, as far as I can find anyway.

Here is a precis of what Arnebeck says in the interview:

He says a lawsuit will be filed 9.00 Monday.  He does not want to give too much away because the other side will be listening.  Conyers is convening a hearing at City Hall Chambers in Columbus, Broad Street, joined by fellow members of his committe and progressive legislative leaders in the state of Ohio.  It was originally scheduled to be at the State Capitol but they have been refused a room there.  At the hearing, various experts will lay out evidence, for the press and others "that Kerry won Ohio and the nation, and that there is overwhelming evidence to that effect".  

He says the Republicans do not want the votes counted, because "if they count the votes it will prove they didn't win".  He talks about Clinton Curtis's evidence that the vote may have been hacked, and cites Ronnie Duggers' claim that challenges should have been mounted in both Ohio and Florida this time round.  He says he understood Florida was going to be challenged and was very surprised when it was not. Cites exit poll evidence that Kerry won Ohio, and says that exit poll data is more likely to be accurate given the vulnerability of the voting system to manipulation and partisan influence, and the statistical anomalies observed.  Cites the fact that it was exit polls that revealed fraud in Ukraine. Claims "dramatic anomalies" "that make no sense".  

Refutes the idea that it is time to "move on" saying "if they get away with the fraud this time, it will only increase".  He talks about how evidence now shows Gore won Florida on any reasonable scenario, and, in answer to Randi's contention that it's all going to happen again, says that it won't happen again this time because the "grassroots are rising up".  He semi-excuses the major media for ignoring the story up till now, as, because Kerry conceded, it seemed as though investigations wouldn't affect the result.

The interview ends up with an argument as to whether, once fraud is proven, it will make any difference.  Randi maintains the Ohio legislature will send a Republican slate of electors anyway.  Arnebeck says, this is America, we are not worse than Ukraine, and  America does not reward criminal conduct.  He hopes and believes the press will cover Monday's hearing "because we are going to have people there who will blow this thing away". He ends by saying: "our job is to get the truth out. This is still America, if the truth won't float in America, it's no longer America"

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Permalink | 96 comments

  •  So... (none / 0)

    Do you think there is going to be anything "new" that we haven't read about here yet?
    •  I hope so (none / 0)

      I know a lot of people don't want there to have been fraud, because it would mean a virtual end to true democracy as we know it.  However, as I've said... I would rather have less faith in our democracy and have John Kerry as President.

      I would think they have additional information not well publicized.  Why else would he be keeping silent on some things?  It only makes sense, to me anyhow.

      •  Fraud needs to be proven and made public! (4.00 / 8)


         Unless we demonstrate and prove that fraud occurred in a public forum NOW we will be condemned to future fraudulent elections.

          We have now had three straight consecutive years of Voting Irregularies on an almost hallucinigenic level.   Clear willful fraud, manipulation and court obstruction led to Al Gore being denied his rightful victory in 2000.  In 2002, we had the whole Max Cleeland and Walter Mondale (not to mention the Paul Wellstone murder) surprises (just enough to switch the Democratic Senate back to Republican).
          In 2004, we have the largest exit poll hard vote disparity in recorded history.

          Now please do not wish for there to be no fraud disclosed.  The disclosure of fraud is the ONLY way to compell the mainstream public to reevaluate the election and get it to demand remedy (as in a revote! with monitors at the central tabulation sights).

         We will not even push through a half-baked recount effort without that.  

         So, make it known LOUD and CLEAR.

          FRAUD OCCURRED!!    

          And this was, in fact, an illegitimate election.

        •  True! (4.00 / 14)

          This argument is so basic!  What exactly is the point of arguing about who will be the new DNC chair or minority leader or appointed to which cabinet post or ANYTHING?

          If we can't get the election process fixed, there is NOTHING!  Everything else is a moot point!

          The point is not to change the outcome of the 2004 election but to change the process of ALL FUTURE elections so that elections are fair and auditable!  If in the process of changing the process and auditing election 2004, we end up with Kerry in the white house, that is a wonderful bonus.  However, this is not about Kerry, it's about America!

          •  Thank you... (4.00 / 6)

            for saying this.  It is exactly how I feel.  This isn't about tinfoil hats, etc.  This is about the ever escalating organized voter suppression, partisan e-vote control and organized fraud.  (For those who want to dispute the "organized fraud" portion - I will remind you of the Sproul incident involving the mass destruction of Democratic voter registrations in 11 States.  Sounds pretty damn organized to me.)  

            We have created a system were the opportunity for fraud and shenanigans is wide open.  As much as I would love to be rid of the arrogant Shrub, that isn't even the issue for me right now.  If we don't investigate problems and go after unethical assholes like Blackwell - what do you think the 2006/2008 elections will be like?  The Repugs are learning that the above anti-American tactics work.  Our job is to show them they DON'T!  The fight for our beloved democracy is on!

            •  agreed (none / 1)

              Closing our eyes won't make anything go away. It would only allow things to get worse. The only way to stop deceit is to expose it.

              Wow, I can't believe Conyers has gotten so bold as to say everything he said! This really gives me hope that the Dems are not just going to give this up and that truth will prevail.

              •  Perhaps Conyers... (none / 0)

                ...will be the Representative who protests the Electoral College vote on January 6.  I still think Edwards will protest the vote in the Senate, assuming the evidence for fraud is conclusive.

                Are Dennis Kucinich and/or John Glenn attending tomorrow's hearings?

                Yes, in fact, I do drive a Volvo.

                by KTinOhio on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 12:08:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think (none / 0)

                  Edwards will still be a senator on Jan 6th.  Doesn't the new Congress begin on Jan.4th?

                  "Do Iraqi children scream when the bombs fall if no one is in the White House to hear them?" Bernard Chazelle

                  by dmac on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 12:18:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Absentee Ballot Stuffing in Trumbull County Ohio (4.00 / 2)

          Hate to blow my own horn, but I just put up this diary about a study showing more certified absentee votes than absentee voters in Trumbull County Ohio.

          Smells like plain old fraud to me.

        •  I'd like for it to be "disclosed" (none / 0)

          but I'd like more for it to be "demonstrated".  If its has to be inferred, then the US populace won't accept it.

          The whole election fraud/voter suppression issue is about legitimacy, the legitimacy of the election and the government.  With that in mind, the challenge to it also needs to be legitimate.

          I'm hoping they have all their ducks in order. I really don't want them to blow it.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:14:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Paul Wellstone (none / 0)

          Woah, woah, woah.

          The Paul Wellstone murder?

          Could you please pick out a source you consider to be credible and post that link?

          And if you need anything...there's some ants.

          by Skipbidder on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:52:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Probable cause (none / 1)

          Just got back from a rally at the NC State House.  The argument, and I think a good one, is probable cause.  We have probable cause to investigate and that's all we need. It works because it does not jump to conclusions and take us out of the perception of tin foil hat land.
          •  debraz... (none / 0)

            You went downtown to the rally in Raleigh?  Were there alot of people there? The press?  Wish I could have gone.
            •  small but dedicated crowd (none / 0)

              The speakers were terrific, especially Chuck Herrin (see his creds and site below). The press covered a portion, several TV stations but I'm not sure which ones.  There may have been print journalists, but none I know.

              The best thing for me is it made this real, tangible, not just online or in print.  Normal, sane, intelligent people with expertise talking about the need to change the system.  It ain't over, keep in touch by visiting any of these websites.

              Featured Speakers:
              Joyce McCloy, NC Verified Voting - http://www.ncvoter.net
              David Allen, Black Box Voting - http://www.blackboxvoting.com
              Cecil Bothwell, The Progressive Project - CLizak@NCMCapital.com
              Chuck Herrin ( Republican Computer Security Expert ) - http://www.chuckherrin.com

              •  thanks for the reply (none / 0)

                checked out Chuck Herrin's website-he's writing a book on how to become a professional Hacker-is that for the Dem's-to even out the playing field?? Just kidding.  There are quite a few of us here in the triangle area. Just realizing how many of us there are, when you said you had been downtown.
                •  levelling the playing field (none / 0)

                  Flash: Many of the best hackers don't do it for the money. Like any satisfying art, for those best at it the art itself is most of the reward.

                  So: If the machines are to remain hackable, the winning Democratic strategy is to present a platform that will be attractive to some good portion of the best of the hackers. Doing that requires more attention to a high valuation of individual freedom (just the opposite of the "moral values" demand from the Reptile Party). Fact is, you get the valuation of freedom right and the next generation's Jobs and Wozniak won't be whistling into pay phones, they'll be whistling home the vote.

                  Two level strategy: First, try to get unhackable machines running open source, free software. Second, just in case that fails, emphasize political positions that will bring the best of the independent hackers out to - totally uncordinated with our political campaigns - hack the vote so we win. The Republikans may be the best at conspiracies (heck, hand 'em the prize on that!), but the smartest, best hackers out here aren't of Re:publication, and only need a sign that the Democrats get it - a good start is making Dean DNC Chair - to work wonders towards a future dreamed in common.

              •  I'm so glad Chuck Herrin was there (none / 0)

                For one thing, it puts this issue in a more non-partisan framework, as it should be. That guy impressed me so much I've written two diaries about him. I've also been sending him emails thanking him and encouraging him for speaking out on this issue. He's a patriotic American with integrity.

                Here's those diaries, if interested:

                http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/16/225713/53
                http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/21/14022/824

        •  Where to go next (none / 0)

          The problem is that they stole one election and got away with it. Is it any wonder that this election looked better from their perspective. There's no consequence for cheating, they've already proved that by getting away with it once. It has already gotten worse, it looks like this election (which Kerry really one) was less close than the last one.
          •  arrogance (none / 1)

            This is the kind of arrogance that makes me want to puke buckeyes:

            Ohio's electors are a mix of GOP officials and others who are being rewarded for service to the party.

            ``It's a great honor to serve as a member of the Electoral College and it's a great honor to vote for President Bush,'' said Alex Arshinkoff, longtime chairman of the Summit County Republican Party who is an elector for the second straight meeting.

            Karyle Mumper, chairwoman of the Marion County Republican Party, will be an elector for the first time. She, too, feels honored but believes the demonstrations outside will be a distraction.

            ``It's a shame they do not believe in the honesty and the professional people working the polls,'' said Mumper. ``I just think they are sore losers and money and time (for the recount) could be spent on other things.''

            •  If Mumpers really believes this (none / 0)

              then let her call for an investigation and recount.  If in fact the "sore losers" have spent all this time and money to find out that the election was fair anyway, then she can sit back and laugh.  My suspicion is the Republicans know what the outcome of an investigation would be, so welcoming one is the last thing they want to do.
            •  On Alex Arshinkoff's "moral values" (none / 0)

              Arshinkoff lives in my town.  He's the head of the Summit county Republican party, and a wonderful poster boy for Republican moral values.  He is alleged to frequent a local gay bar, allegedly for the purpose of picking up young boys.  I'm not sure if he's married or not, though.  Nothing wrong with being gay---heteros go to bars also, to pick up people---but to present yourself as one way and to openly support Issue 1 while you may not be quite what you say you are...

              When the bar owner allegedly found out about Arshinkoff & the Repubs celebrating Issue 1's passage, he was said to ask Arshinkoff directly about it----supposedly another bar worker gave Arshinkoff a local article showing his celebration of Issue 1's passage...well, good ol' Alex was never seen in those parts again.

              Also, this seems very typical of some Republican thinking---that they are above the law in some cases.  Our town has very strict laws regarding signage, even for political signs.  Arshinkoff decided to get himself a big old Bush/Cheney 8ft x 10ft sign and plant it in his yard during the last election campaign.  Ppl complained, some bashed the sign, one guy even drove through it with his SUV---each time, Arshinkoff just put up a new sign.  The city was fining him $150/day, but he still kept it up.  How's that for obeying the law of the land?--town, in this case.

    •  I don't know.... (4.00 / 2)

      I fear not, but I am really hoping....

      I'm telling myself that if there was something really big, it would be in everyone's interest not to reveal it until the suit is filed.

    •  Just saw this on another diary (none / 0)

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/12/104619/55#2

      Maybe a connection with Arnebeck's lawsuit? Any thoughts?

  •  Arnebeck is flat out wrong (none / 0)

    Optimism is a lovely thing, but not when it blinds you.  America does, has, and always will reward criminal conduct in every sphere of life.  Also, I think his faith that anyone beyond maybe the AP will cover the filing of the lawsuit is misplaced.  Even if the story does end up in the WaPo or NYT, it'll be two paragraphs in the corner of page A-26.

    That being said, all the praise in the world to him for being willing to go forward with this.  This is the first fraud diary I'm recommending, since it tells of something concrete actually happening.  I wish Arnebeck were right, but I think Randi is in this case--Ohio is sending Republican electors.

    The best that I think can be hoped for at this point is to gather proof of fraud and attempt to de-legitimize Bush's second term.  That'll be tricky, but can be done.  Bush is being inaugurated, come hell or high water.  Dammit.

    "Raybin is not a lying maniac. I've found this person to be an extremely clever and devious lying conartist, but never a maniac."--RElland on Daily Kos

    by Raybin on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 06:36:32 AM PDT

    •  question (none / 1)

      I'm one of the people who has not been following the ins and outs of the vote fraud diaries closely.  The issues seemed complex, and the story moved around a lot.  And Bev Harris began to look like my cousin:  more wacky and paranoid than credible.  I check in with Olbermann pretty regularly on TV to see what the latest might be.

      But this stuff has my attention.  So please catch me up:  who is Arnebeck?

      Some of you may want to flame me for being laste to the party, but consider my heightened level of attention as a sign of progress on your collective part:  you're getting past the "innovator" stage of the change adoption curve to the early adoptors, and may therefore gain traction with the "early majority."

      We are not "compassionate conservatives." We are "fighting liberals." And we'll kick your ass.

      by Pachacutec on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 07:07:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush may be inevitable (none / 0)

      But we can force the toadies in Congress to cast a vote on record endorsing election fraud. Then keep the heat turned up for two years. If that doesn't sweep the scum out office then we are truly lost.
    •  The USA does respect fair elections. (none / 0)

      We should not directly equate a lack of justice with a lack of respect for the law.  The average US citizen does respect the law and fair elections.  

      Although every society has minor laws, such as littering, at which the public scoffs, it also has laws that forbid certain taboo behavior, such as murder, embezzlement, torture, and election fraud.  The average US citizen greatly respects these laws.  Of course, these laws are still broken all the time and people get away with it.  It is because these people run/own the system, have the ability to hide their acts, or confuse the public with rhetoric.  This is the injustice.  However, when the violation of these laws are truly made public, the majority of the American public will vehemently condemn the violators with few exceptions.  

      For example, the higher ups that were ultimately responsible for Abu Ghraib will never be punished because they had the power to hide their tracks . . . and, sure, there were fascists like Rush Limbaugh that excused the torture.   However, when the details of what happened at Abu Ghraib where made public, the perpetrators faced massive public outrage..  

      The same thing can happen in Ohio.   However, we must measure our idealism against our realism . . . we must be very frank with ourselves about the time and resources we must commit.  It takes time to find evidence and to build a public and legal case, and it takes time and sizable organized movement to fight through roadblocks that have been thrown up by the powerful perpetrators trying to hide their crimes.  This must be done to air our case in front of the majority of Americans . . . the majority that does have a respect for the law and fair elections.  

      We can prevail.  

    •  America is reluctant to wipe out our childhood (none / 0)

      view that we are the beacon of fairness and democracy.

      I think they want to hang on to the view, because the alternative is far too overwhelming, BUT

      IF we frame it, that YES we were wonderfully generous, fair, and enviable UNTIL these old fashioned S&L crooks came to town, then we'll get some action.

       I'm stil hopeful that the Electoral College and/or our Congress will intervene to prevent sanctioning this highly suspicious election.

      Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

      by Einsteinia on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 01:57:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Deja vu all over again (none / 1)

    Arnbeck is going to file a suit on Monday? Didn't he promise that last Monday? Does he promise to file a suit? Really? Again? Maybe he should file it first and then talk about it.

    (Bush) believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. -- Colbert

    by makemefree on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 07:12:20 AM PDT

  •  He Seems Entirely Sane to Me (none / 0)

    He could be wrong, or he could be right but lack the right (amount of) evidence, but he dosen't seem crazy. If he calls me up and ask my opinion I'll tell him go ahead. I've thought about it all night and I'm comfortable with that.

    But I also agree with Randi to a degree, that if there's any physical way for Ohio to send Republican electors, they will, and their vote will be accepted.

    I barely know how to speculate on the election rigging but I'll take a stab at it. My bets are:

    • Legal suppression -- by Blackwell, 100% certain.
    • Old fashioned counting fraud -- by non-coordinated locals -- 20% likely.

    Did this much change the outcome? I say 10% chance.

    * Automated fraud -- done by one group of actors not linkable to Ohio elected officials. 5% chance, but if it happened, 100% chance it stole the White House.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 08:06:37 AM PDT

    •  Sane or not (4.00 / 2)

      it seems perfectly logical to me that a person stealing a presidential election (as well as
      supporting lower level ones) would want as many strings to his bow as possible.  

      1. Even if one or two of your methods are compromised they can still be shown as "not
      enough to have changed things".

      2. To get enough of a vote swing to falsely show a "mandate" you might need to tweak large
      numbers of votes. This is easer to get past Murphy if a lot of ways are used and glitches in
      one or two methods can be allowed for.

      3. If a whistleblower comes forward, they can't say "see, this stole the election" just "this
      tweaked the election" and can be marginallized - see note 1.

      4. At the last minute (or 2 hours - see other diaries) the backdoor fix into the vote
      consolidation servers is used to add the critical state tipping points.

      Tin hat?  Perhaps, but if I had the rescources Rove has that's just how I would do it.

      But Holy State (we have lived to learn) Endeth in Holy War. - Kipling

      by nargel on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:54:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Captain, Your Logic is Impeccable. (none / 0)

        We are in grave danger.

        --So where are the electoral anti-gravs stored?

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 08:18:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the anti-gravs flat-lined (none / 0)

          during a "mysterious" power loss.  We are having to recharge them from scratch.  Unfortunately,
          this will require the entire output from a large, well producing snark mine for a multi-year
          time period to succeed.  Conversation tactics #12 (blather amongst yourselves) and #57 ("armed
          insurrection as a hobby" or "trimming bushes for small change[s]) will be used to pass the time.

          But Holy State (we have lived to learn) Endeth in Holy War. - Kipling

          by nargel on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:52:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  really basic question: (none / 0)

    Won't it be too late by Monday a.m.?  Isn't it too late ready?

    Actually, this question has two parts.  The first is basically whether the country has already accepted the so-called electoral verdict in Bush's favor.  Wouldn't it take a trully massive amount of coverage in the media, as well as vast public outcry, if we were to have even a slight chance of reversing this thing?  I mean, this would have to be bigger than Watergate and late-stage Vietnam war put together, wouldn't it?

    Second issue: As I understand it, the decision of the electors of the electoral college is final and binding.  Even if it would turn out that Bush lost  Ohio --or there were serious doubts about Ohio--  there would nothing that could be done about it after the fact.  Unless something huge developed in lightening speed that made this issue totally unavoidable, the electors are going to go with the concensual reality (that was shaped by Republican operatives, by the media, by Kerry himself, and even by a large segment of Kossaks).

    So what the hell are the chances that anything will develope at this late hour??

    •  Why? Are you taking bets? (4.00 / 6)

      The best thing to do is fight for a righteous cause and win.

      The next best thing to do is fight for a righteous cause and lose.

    •  Electors (4.00 / 4)

      Extract from speech by John C. Bonifaz, founder and general counsel of the National Voting Rights Institute, on December 4, 2004:

      Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell is actively engaged in thwarting the recount law. He is doing everything in his power to deny our clients from having a meaningful and timely recount. We stand here today on December the 4th, a full 32 days after the November 2nd election, and Mr. Blackwell has yet to certify the statewide results of this election. Thirty-two days - no certification. The Ohio recount law states that candidates shall file their requests for a recount within five days after the Secretary certifies the statewide results. Mr. Blackwell knows that, which is why he is delaying his certification until this Monday, December 6. On December 7, his office says he will be sending out certificates to the presidential electors for their casting of the votes at the Electoral College on December 13. These dates are created by federal statute. Mr. Blackwell knows that. He is intentionally allowing no time for a recount to occur before he sends out the certificates to the presidential electors on December 7 and before the Electoral College meets on December 13. Mr. Blackwell, who also serves as chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Ohio, is doing everything he can to push through a slate of electors based on an untested, initial count of the vote.

      He must be stopped. The federal judiciary has sadly refused to intervene. The federal courts recognize that the candidates have a right to a recount. We will have our recount. But while the courts will not expedite this recount process, we have a message today for Mr. Blackwell:

      In the name of democracy, in the name of the right to vote, in the name of the Constitution, let the recount process proceed to its completion before you send the certificates to the presidential electors. Let the recount process proceed to its completion before the Electoral College meets. Let the recount process proceed to its completion prior to the casting of Ohio's Electoral College votes.

      Presidential electors serve a term of office. It is a one day term. They show up to meet to cast their state's electoral votes in the Electoral College. They derive their power from the people of each state. They represent the will of the voters.

      If a recount process is proceeding, by definition, the will of the voters remains undetermined. No presidential elector has the right to assume his or her term of office until a final determination of the vote count is made. And no secretary of state has the right to certify the presidential electors until a final determination of the vote count is made. In a democracy, votes must count.

      So, let me be clear here. Let me be clear. We will have a recount in this state. That recount process will begin immediately after Mr. Blackwell certifies the statewide results on Monday. And even if, even if the Electoral College meets on December 13, the recount process will proceed. And if, at the end of the recount process, it is determined that a different set of presidential electors should be representing the people of Ohio, that set of electors will meet and will cast their votes for President. And if that happens, the United States Congress will receive the votes of two competing sets of presidential electors from the state of Ohio when it convenes on January 6, 2005, to formally receive the Electoral College votes. One slate will be chosen by Mr. Blackwell. The other will be chosen by the will of the people of Ohio. We will have a recount. And the fight will go on.

      full text here

      •  I don't mean to be a pessimistic bastard, but (none / 0)

        so be it!

        As heartening as I find that last paragraph you quote, this guy doesn't inspire confidence in me when he isn't an Ohio officeholder but merely co-counsels Cobb and Badnarik for the recount.

        Talk of electors not going forward, etc., until the recount is completed means nothing to me. I would be more heartened if I could find a set of guidelines/rules/rulings and/or laws that would enable Kerry to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. I sure hope, should it reach that point, that Bonifaz's arguments will then prevail in court.

        ~~This is Aaron G. Stock~~ (My Public Email is altered. Swap "g-ma-il" and "ace-pumpk-in", then remove dashes to email me.)

        by Ace Pumpkin on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 10:33:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The electors aren't the final word (none / 0)

      If evidence surfaces that puts the electors election in doubt it takes only one congressman to challenge them. Congress must then vote to recognize Bush's slate of electors, Kerry's slate, or discard Ohio's all together. If they recognize Bush's they are rewarding fraud (if it occurred) and should feel the wrath of all Americans (HA!).

      If they discard Ohio's electors then neither candidate has 270 votes. Then Congress gets to vote by state delegation for president. Since the Republicans control more delegations, once again Bush wins. But once again they have to justify rewarding fraud.

      If Ohio is overturned then no state, red or blue, will be above a recount, either by court order or conducted by the press through FOIA requests. It will get ugly.

      •  I really hope it does... (none / 0)

        Get ugly, I mean.  It's time for the legal majority who voted for the Democratic candidates to make a big, big ugly stink.  To hell with 2006... I want justice now.

        I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat. Will Rogers.

        by tomathawl on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 01:50:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Electors are people (none / 0)

      Electors are people, and, for the most part, good people with a conceince. They may be true believers, but if you are able to demonstrate that the election was stolen, some of the electors will switch or abstain.

      But, more to the point, if you can demonstrate that the election was stolen, the American people will not allow the election results to stand. It's not that Americans are lazier than Ukrainians, its that there very clearly was fraud in the Ukraine, but there wasn't very clearly fraud in the US.

      But, for any of this to happen, the vote fraud folks need to clearly demonstrate that there was fraud. Which, so far, hasn't happened.

      (-7.38,-2.51) 76% of dKos readers think I'm a secret wing-nut operative!

      by Gustavo on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 11:26:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why not share the evidence with (none / 0)

    a Olbermann or Rhandi with an agreement not to leak the details?

    Same thing with Bev.  She should say "well, I don't want to announce how much money we have raised with the general public, but I will tell you offline."

  •  Kerry (none / 0)

    please speak up now.  
    •  if the evidence is real and Kerry doesn't speak up (none / 1)

      if the evidence is real and Kerry doesn't speak up then our protests and anger should be directed towards him.
    •  Thanks daisy, (none / 0)

      that was exactly what I was thinking. For all the talk of Kerry being involved in the background, I'll believe it when I see it. If there ever was a time for Kerry to step forward and take a firm stand, it is now.
      •  Disagree strongly (4.00 / 3)

        If Kerry steps in now, it becomes about Kerry.  And as super simian says below in the subject line: This can't be about Kerry.  There are times when silence is powerful.  

        I think this is one of them.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:20:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's still kerry (none / 0)

          Either way, it's still about Kerry.  Without Kerry, repugs can say that he campaigned on every vote being counted and was satisfied enough with the totals to concede, W won. So no smoke, no fire, shut up and go home.

          If Kerry does get involved, the emphasis must be restoring faith in the democratic process, find out what went wrong where to fix it. That's where the emphasis should be anyway in my opinion. He could say that he can not stand by any longer and see Americans lose faith in the process.

          Either way, Kerry is screwed as a future candidate on more charges of flip flop, whichever way the wind blows, broken promises, etc.

        •  Getting conservatives on board (none / 1)

          Our GOP friend and expert witness, ethical hacker Chuck Herrin, makes exactly this point on his Web site -- and in fact calls it "the biggest reason that Conservatives won't admit that the election was stolen":


          It wouldn't matter if George Bush bit the head off a Basset Hound puppy in front of the UN -  Republicans are not going to join in your fight to overturn the election and inaugurate John Kerry.  Conservatives don't want Kerry in office. ... [M]ost Conservatives will not embrace the cause if the goal is to put Kerry in office, regardless if whether of not fraud was committed.  You are missing the point when you describe the problem as "Bush stole the election from Kerry", and Republicans are simply not going to get on board with that. ...

          The problem is not that John Kerry lost the election.  That is just a SYMPTOM of the real problem, which is that the electorate may not be under the control of the American people.  We need to re-frame this debate under different terms that EVERY American can understand and support.

          The issue needs to be what it is -- a free, fair, and accountable election process, and the ways in which we all lose if that process is obstructed. To that end, the statements to which Kerry has so far limited himself are pretty much what's needed, if perhaps a little on the cautious side. The moment in which to ramp up his own rhetoric hasn't yet arrived. It may be here sooner than we think. Let's see what happens during the coming week.

          "You with your big words, and your...small, difficult words!" -- Peter Griffin
          ePluribus Media

          by Penny Century on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 01:40:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  this can't be about Kerry (4.00 / 9)

      It has to be about voter fraud issues and the nitty gritty details about if and how that voter fraud may have occurred.  The minute Kerry steps into the picture, a media circus will result and (as I have said before) this issue becomes all about Kerry as the Sore Loserman of 2004.   Believe me, the corporate MSM gets involved when Kerry gets involved -- and unless he is on a rock solid footing -- they will NOT spin the issue of voter fraud in his favor.

      I'm sure if there is one person on the face of the earth who cares more about possible election fraud and a stolen presidency in 2004, it's Kerry.  After what he went through and his family went through, I'm sure he cares deeply.

      But let's face it, kids, this is war, and the repugs have the big guns -- that is the corporate MSM -- on their side.  They can fight and win the battle of the American mind in a heartbeat.

      Look at it this way.  You are trying to move something big, like a huge bookcase or something accross the room.  Sometimes you have to get out in front and pull, and sometimes you have to get behind and push.  This is one time when Kerry has to get behind and push, and he has to keep his center of gravity low to the ground.

      If Arnebeck can be believed, and has something bigger than statistical anomolies which in the end (unfortunately) will not stand up as evidence in court, then I know we can count on Kerry to step at just the right moment.  That would be when he can't be ridiculed as a sore loser, and when voter fraud can't be ridiculed as a tinfoil hat conspiracy of the lunatic fringe.

      So -- until further notice -- I'm still giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt.  

      •  Kerry (none / 1)

        I am also giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt.  He has already proven how courageous and intelligent he is.  No reason to believe he's any different now.  I'm just glad they didn't poison him!

        I do not know what weapons World War III will be fought with. World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -- Albert Einstein

        by elveta on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 11:18:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  i agree with you. (none / 0)

        i contributed to the common cause effort in ohio because i thought every allegation should be looked into, but didn't believe it would be in the country's interest for kerry to be at the heart of any evolving controversy. having said that, i also think that kerry will be stunned if fraud turns out to be provable. there are lots of reasons for that. among them the 3 million vote difference and the democratic losses in the congress.

        i hope no one thinks this is going to be easy even if fraud is provable. nor will it be easy on us a country. the congress that convenes in january will be even more heavily republican. we've already seen the way delayco is acting now - even before the new repub members join and the dems depart. who really believes proven fraud means bush will not be declared president?

        many years ago i took a course on leadership taught by a psychiatrist. he said then that change comes in increments because it is so difficult for people to accept truths that are different from what they already believe. one result is that leadership can be fraught with great difficulty. when new truths mean the death of old truths, leaders can also end up being targets of rage.

        if fraud turns out to be reality and not a tinfoiler's pipe dream, there will be great resistance to accepting it as fact. there will also be great rage at kerry as the emblem of a changing truth. i don't know if any of us are prepared for that.

        We get a lot of advice. We tend to listen when somebody's won something. - Joe Lockhart

        by yankeedoodler on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 01:49:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Judges and the Media (none / 0)

    Whatever suit is filed its is likely to be somewhat complex, because the alleged manipulations are varied and complex, probably purposely so.  That combined with the fact that these are just allegations at this point will probably mean little national coverage, except for Olbermann of course.  I'm not sure about Ohio law with regard to this case, but it is probably a good bet that the Repubs will request some type of summary judgement to get this thing quickly dismissed.  If the judge rules against the quick dismissal and indicates that there  is at least enough evidence to warrant a full hearing, I think it could ignite national media coverage.  It would no longer be just the "losing" side screaming.  Such a judgement would say "hold on a minute, maybe there is something to these charges".  However, if the judge dismisses it out of hand, it could signal the end of any hope of getting national attention.  The key questions are who are the judges in this case, and what does their history suggest they will do?  Anyone in Ohio have any insight?

    "Some men see things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?"

    by Doctor Who on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 08:25:35 AM PDT

    •  My understanding is that.... (none / 0)

      ...the case goes before the Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court, whose name is Thomas J. Moyer. He is a republican, but apparently has made some decisions that indicate some open mindedness (ie, pro gay, anti gun type stuff). Decisions can be appealed to the full Ohio Supreme Court, which is 5-2 republican.

      More information on Moyer from people in Ohio would be interesting....

      •  Question (none / 0)

        Wasn't Moyer's opponent in this election Municipal Judge Ellen Connally of Cleveland? And hasn't the large number of votes she received compared to Kerry been used as fodder for charges of fraud?
      •  But Arnebeck is using Moyers own election... (none / 0)

        result as a benchmark. I can't see how Moyer can avoid recusing himself. Who does it go to then? Is there a single Democrat on Ohio's Supreme Court?

        My impression is that, in general, Ohio's Supreme Court is fair-minded. Bush picked the wackiest justice on that court to go to the Federal bench. Would be sweet justice, if in his zeal to pack the federal courts, he burns himself in the recount trials.

        Of course in Bush's mind the SCOTUS is the only court that counts. But hopefully, he used up his chips there with the 2000 vote. They haven't been too kind to him overall these past four years.

  •  Thom Hartmann (none / 0)

    I haven't learned how to link yet, but please if you get a chance, read Thom Hartmann on "How to Take Back a Stolen Election."  It is very informative.  He gives a historical account of the past stolen elections and what we need to do about this most recent one. I didn't realize our country has spent millions of dollars supporting stolen elections in Serbia, the Ukraine, and other countries. (Not to mention how we are paying for elections in Iraq with the blood of our brave soldiers and hard cash.)  But until the media starts getting the truth out, then it isn't real, unfortunately.  Just google Thom Hartmann, and you will get to his website.  He appears to be a credible, accomplished journalist and psychotherapist as well.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

    by rlharry on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:01:48 AM PDT

  •  why Repubs may not want a recount (none / 1)

    even though there may have een some manipulation at the individual voting machine level in some places, the easiest way to do the manipulation would be at the acuumjulation  level [where 80% of the votes in the nation are tabulated by either ESA&S or Deiblod equipment /software, and we remember that the head of ES&S is the bortgher of the #2 at Diebold].

    Now, one presumes that every precinct does a totalling.  Those figures are reported upline, and that's wwhere the ES&S and Dieblod Gems stuff kicks in [and I won't recapitulate the Bev Harris demosntration about how easy it is to hack the GEMS stuff].  If the hacking were at this higher level only, then a cpomplete recount, tracing the counts from idnvidual machines through individual precincts uipt ot the County level to the state totals givs something of an audit trail.   If you want to hack the process, you amke sure that the hacked margin is big enough so that you are beyond the level for that state of automatic recounts.

    But what if there is a true statewide recount?  Then the fraud might suddenly become highy visible  -- all it would take is being ab le to prove such manipulation or change for a few precincts  -- that is, what is shown by precinct at the county level does not match the individual precinct totals  -- and you'd have a major scandal.

    I'm not saying that such is the scenario  --  I am just positing one reason why there would be usch resistance in some cases to do doing a complete recount.  

    Oh, and btw  -- if one cann ot trace the results from figures reported by idnividujal machines or ballot baxes all the way through, then you do NOT have a secure or auditable electoral process, and no one should ahve any confidence in any results, even those that favor your candidate.

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:46:47 AM PDT

    •  And that's why to hack ... (none / 0)

      And that's why to hack the individual voting machines with a program like the one developed in Florida, even though it takes more people to carry out the hack.

      Alternately, you could have the central accumulators set up with programs which download themselves to the individual voting machines at the time of accumulation and change the vote there. The flow would be: Accumulator connects to precinct machines via network (modem, most likely). Accumulator loads program to precinct machines, switches votes, then uploads resulting totals to itself. Program loaded to precinct machine removes itself, and program which injected that program, on the accumulator, does likewise. Without paper records at the precinct level this would make for very difficult forensics, and subsequent counts from the precinct machines would match the accumulated total.

    •  The challenges would have started? (none / 0)

      If there was such a hack perhaps the BOE people and Blackwell do not know for sure. They may have guess it happened and looked the other way to make it possible. But if they were in on it there would be a full court press with lawsuits everywhere to block this recount. Of course the Bushies still could show up in court Monday to get a restraining order.

      If it is just some black-ops types installing software then they have to sit by helplessly and watch their handiwork be exposed.

  •  According to Ohio law.... (4.00 / 4)

    Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell seems to have broken the law and provided a prima facie case for election fraud ( link to DailyKos diary yesterday on this story ) :

    "On Friday December 10 two certified volunteers for the Ohio Recount team assigned to Greene County were in process recording voting information from minority precincts in Greene County, and were stopped mid-count by a surprise order from Secretary of State Blackwell's office. The Director Board of Elections stated that "all voter records for the state of Ohio were "locked-down," and now they are not considered public records."

    The volunteers were working with voter printouts received directly from Carole Garman, Director, Greene County Board of Elections. Joan Quinn and Eve Roberson, retired attorney and election official respectively, were hand-copying voter discrepancies from precinct voting books on behalf of the presidential candidates Mr. Cobb (Green) and Mr. Badnarik Libertarian) who had requested the recount.

    One of the goals of the recount was to determine how many minority voters were unable to vote or denied voting at the polls. Upon requesting copies of precinct records from predominantly minority precincts, Ms. Garman contacted Secretary of State Blackwell's office and spoke to Pat Wolfe, Election Administrator. Ms. Wolfe told Ms. Garman to assert that all voter records for the State of Ohio were "locked down" and that they are "not considered public records."  "......

    Ohio Revised Code Title XXXV Elections, Sec. 3503.26 that requires all election records to be made available for public inspection and copying. ORC Sec. 3599.161 makes it a crime for any employee of the Board of Elections to knowingly prevent or prohibit any person from inspecting the public records filed in the office of the Board of Elections. Finally, ORC Sec. 3599.42 clearly states: "A violation of any provision of Title XXXV (35) of the Revised Code constitutes a prima facie case of election fraud within the purview of such Title." "  - Election fraud slam dunk.  

    •  I'd like to think you're right (none / 1)

      but I think someone someone commented in the diary on the incident that these elections records aren't public until the election is entirely over. I assume this would be stated somewhere else in Ohio's code if true.
      •  Outline of Ohio Recount Procedures (4.00 / 3)

        From Ohio's  Online Media Guide  scroll down to Election-Related Information, and click on the link to the PDF for Recount Procedures to read the following snippets:

        C. BEFORE THE RECOUNT
        1. Establish Time of the Recount
        a) No recount may be held prior to the official canvass and certification.

        This has already happened, since the results have been certified, and

        E. RECOUNT PROCEDURES
        1. All Voting Systems
        b) Total votes cast must be compared to the number of voters listed in the pollbook, poll list, or signature pollbook records. In the presence of at least two election officials of different political parties, the records must be available for visual inspection by witnesses. The witnesses shall not be permitted to handle the records.

        The pollbooks, etc. are PART of the recount.

        Maybe I'm taking this info out of context, but based on the above, I don't see where Blackwell thinks he has a right to pull this off.   What he has done though, is drag it out yet another three days.
         

        A ship adrift in a sea of rhetoric & recycled clichés.

        by Terre on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 01:17:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "...grassroots rising up..." (none / 1)

    We need to start orgainzing and fundraising NOW to support a Million Voter March to demonstrate against any Bush Inaugural in January.  We need to get bus caravans and tents, food kitchens and signs, websites and posters going.  It should be done in the dignified, all-i9nclusive was the pre-invasive anti-Iraq war protests were handled, so that families and not-so-radical people feel completely comfortable particiapting.  Maybe the mainstream churches in the DC area might want to be the "yeast" in extending the offer to put up out-of-towners?  Next to the actual legal recount effort, I can't think of a better way to spend that $15 million John kerry still has left over!

    "It's just like the 60's, only with less hope." -Justin Bond in the film "Shortbus" (-6.38/ -4.21)

    by wonkydonkey on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 10:30:37 AM PDT

  •  criminal conduct at home (none / 0)

     Arnebeck says, this is America, we are not worse than Ukraine, and
    America does not reward criminal conduct.

    wait a second.  are we talking about a country with a history of lynching non-whites, breeching treaties, violating international law, bla bla bla

    i wish i were enough of an opitimist to believe Arnebeck.

  •  LA Times says Kerry under pressure.... (none / 0)

    hi
    perhaps I should post the la times article I got from truthout this morning. according to the article, there is massive pressure on kerry within the party to unconcede, and these are mainstream dems. perhpas we arent as alone as we think in this. and the onus is on kerry for sure. Im going to post it as a diary...
    art
  •  Freepress releases more testimony.... (none / 0)

    has anyone seen the new stuff on freepresss.org today? they've released more testimony (it is  a very long read, but full of gut wrenching tales of long lines, supression etc)? here's the link
    http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/983
  •   Sue Kerry Too (none / 1)

    Afghanistan , Iraq , and the Ukraine have all received the blessings of the Bush administration for fair and open elections . Should the American people settle for less ? Since the first colonies were established Americans have been dying literally and making a difference . What I can't understand is why Kerry is hanging back in the distance . Especially since he promised to fight to make sure every vote was counted and that every vote would count . Maybe John Edwards can bring a class action suit against Kerry for all the people that voted for Kerry .
  •  Related to this... (none / 0)

    Please go to this diary, "Make sure the Conyers forum in Ohio is televised by tommcintyre".  Please recommend it, and then send the requisite email to all media--it's all set up and easy to do.
  •  please please please - (none / 0)

    please please let something great come of this.
    my nerves are shot.
  •  7-Easy Things WE Can Do to Help: (4.00 / 4)

    1) E-mail Rep. John Conyers to ask that he call for DELAY of the meeting of Ohio's electors (scheduled to meet in Columbus on Monday, December 13) until every county's recount results are concluded.

    http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/contact.html

    (Note: The meeting of "electors" is an illegal meeting until the will of the people in Ohio has been determined.)

    2) Sign these petitions:

    http://www.contestthevote.org/
    http://www.moveon.org/investigatethevote/

    3) Write or call your senators and tell them not to certify this election on January 6th unless ALL the votes are counted.

    You can find your senators' contact info here:
    http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

    Congress telephone numbers website:
    http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dbq/officials/directory/directory.dbq?command=congdir

    4) Ask C-SPAN to cover the efforts of Rep. Conyers, by a note like the one, below, to these two addresses:
    events@c-span.org
    viewer@c-span.org

    "Dear [Events] [Viewer]:
    On Monday, December 13th, Congressman Conyers will be holding a second forum on the election problems in Ohio.  I urge C-Span to broadcast these forums for the American public.  I think the irregularities witnessed in our past two presidential elections need to be investigated and fixed for the sake of our democratic process.  C-Span's broadcasting of these events could help to reassure us that all is being done to ensure a fair and legitimate electoral process."

    You can also phone C-Span--here's the link for contact info:

    http://www.c-span.org/about/contact.asp?code=About

    5) Demand that the media report the whole story by sending e-mails to this  list:
    "Mother of All Media Lists:"

    http://www.rumormillnews.com/MEDIA_EMAIL_ADDRESSES.htm

    6) Throw in some money and stay informed:  Donate money to organized groups working on this cause, such as MoveOn:

    http://www.moveon.org/

    and the U.S. Voting Integrity Project ("VIP") at:

    http://www.usvip.org/

    7) Participate in protests across the country, TODAY, Sunday, December 12th:

    http://www.51capitalmarch.com/stateContacts.shtml

    Pass it on!

    Gandi said, "First they ignore us, then they laugh at us, then they fight us, and then WE WIN!"

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 12:08:55 PM PDT

    •  What I wrote (4.00 / 3)

      Dear Senator __:

      It is the concensus of the community of those who work professionally in computer systems that those used in our most recent election - both in individual voting stations and in tabulation - are easily and trivially hackable. Given that any computer system that can be hacked, will be hacked in short order in this day and age, it strains belief to imagine that there were not significant and perhaps election-determining acts of computer crime involved in this last election, particularly in the presidential race.

      That being the case, short of a complete national audit by independent experts in an open and transparent process, I urge you not to certify the results of the Electoral College this January.

      •  P.S. To your excellent letter might be, (none / 0)

        therefore, on January 6th please object to the confirmation of this presidency pending a full investigation as to the accuracy of the vote.

        Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

        by Einsteinia on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 09:13:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Dear Cliff, (none / 0)

    It's no longer America.

    Sorry.

    Signed,

    chris

    --
    "Who do you have to blow to get a president impeached around here?"

    by chris on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 04:14:54 PM PDT

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