Daily Kos

Blood and treasure

Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:32:23 AM PDT

The war cost in blood:
1,440 allied killed
1,294 U.S. killed
2.27 killed per day
9,766 U.S. wounded in action
The New England Journal of Medicine notes that 10 percent of wounded in action die -- the best survival rate in US military history. But the carnage is gruesome.

That picture is one of the tamest of the bunch. This soldier's vital organs were protected by his kevlar vest. The rest of his body was in considerable less luck. That casualties like this one survive these types of injuries is nothing short of miraculous.

Meanwhile, there's the cost in treasure. Nearly $150 billion and counting.

Twenty-one months after U.S. forces entered Iraq, the Defense Department is only now coming to terms with the equipment shortages caused by the prolonged fighting there. The Pentagon has prepared an unprecedented emergency spending plan totaling nearly $100 billion -- as much as $30 billion more than expected as recently as October -- say senior defense officials and congressional budget aides. About $14 billion of that would go to repairing, replacing and upgrading an increasingly frayed arsenal.
That's $100 billion more than the $150 billion already spent. And there's no letup in sight. All of that money for a war that was supposed to have paid for itself through Iraqi oil revenues.
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  •  That's pretty shocking. (3.50 / 8)

    a warning please.
    •  A warning ? (4.00 / 43)

      This should be on the front page of every paper in the country.  We have this stupid, idiotic, censured culture that wants to talk tough, but not see the results of our actions.  I'd love to print out color copies of this and put them on each gas pump in America.  Maybe that would wake a few people up.  
      •  Nice post, I wish I was 30 seconds faster :-) nt (none / 0)

      •  Amen! (4.00 / 2)

        We don't even see them come home, much less this.
      •  I agree (4.00 / 3)

        On my own web page I linked to the PDF file with the gruesome photos, and said that everyone NEEDS to see these pictures. We cannot send people off to be hurt this way unless we know exactly what they will be facing.

        I wish that everyone who supported the war would spend a half hour to view photos of war injuries. If they vomit, I will give them a bucket, but little sympathy.

      •  Totally agree (4.00 / 4)

        I find the kind of meta-outrage (ie, the outrage over showing the true situation, vs. outrage at the true situation itself and its effects) often exhibited by conservatives remarkable.  Supporting the troops apparently just means putting a ribbon magnet on your car, not actually bothering to think about the troops' sacrifices and whether or not they're necessary.

        On a related topic, I've found the reporting on this subject rather bizarre.  I watched a somewhat breathy report by Barbara Starr the other day on CNN that was about both the lower rate of deaths and the magical things that can be used to replace limbs and whatnot.  She focused in on a bunch of optimistic wounded veterans who were indeed bravely trying their hardest to learn to walk on two prostheses, maintain a positive attitude, etc.  But the whole tone of her piece seemed intended to mollify us, to assure us that we don't need to worry, because these horrifically wounded veterans aren't bummed out about their new lives.

        •  Plus (4.00 / 3)

          There are no doubt wonderful drugs to enable these people to live with their lifelong pain.
          All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds!
        •  Be careful though (3.75 / 4)

          ..the law of unintended consequences.  Remember the movie "The Passion of Christ" was bloody and filled with over pain.  The fundies lapped it up.  Remember - to some these soldiers are Christian warriors - their wounds are the stigmata of their affiliation with the "right" cause.  It also deepens, not lessens the sense of having to defend it, having put too much flesh and blood on the line.

          I prefer to hit them another way which is bloodless but as so called conservatives hurts worse...how much money this is costing.  Talk about the money, day and night, night and day and the opportunity costs lost.  That is the conservative blood and guts - not bloody suffering.  They WANT that and it affirms the righteousness of the sacrifice that they are willing to make - albeit with someone else's son/daughter.

          Just my opinion....

          Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

          by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:15:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting point (none / 1)

            I agree with some of what you say in the first paragraph about the way the extremists approach pain and suffering (as long as it isn't their kid), but I think the second paragraph describes an approach for a different kind of conservative.  By that, I mean the classic "fiscal conservative," who by this point has likely either switched parties or rationalized his/her own financial gain so much that s/he can't be reached with true points about cost, etc.  

            I also think that arguments about costs don't really hit the first group - they're too abstract, and W keeps telling them that we're winning the war on terror, which is worth any cost, blah blah blah.

            It would be interesting to see how gruesome images would play on television to the first crowd.  After all, Jesus is a revered historical figure to them - someone superhuman - and you also knew you were in a movie at the Passion.  But when it's someone who looks like a lot of people you know, would it make a difference?  How long could they go on saying that such suffering was noble and worthwhile?  On the other hand, how long before people got inured to the blood and gore the way they get inured to it on TV and in movies?  I don't know.  And I also wonder whether - as some others have pointed out - this would just create more rhetoric about the terrorists who did this to the soldiers and so forth (although I do doubt that that could be effective forever).

            In any case, the law of unintended consequences is certainly something to be worried about in every complex situation.  Too bad Rummy, Wolfie, and Doug Feith don't seem to know that!

          •  These soldiers (none / 0)

            are all the precious children of parents like me.  They are somebody's baby!
            •  Yes (none / 0)

              ..and it can cut both ways:
              1) I don't want my baby to die or get hurt - I want to war to stop (your view, I would believe and most of the blue vote)

              or

              2) BECAUSE my baby is putting his/her life in danger or has been hurt/killed - it HAS to be for SOMETHING....I MUST support this.

              Both happen and for the right, there is some of both, but more of #2 - so showing the blood and gore can backfire as a strategy to increase opposition to the war.

              Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

              by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 02:45:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There must be some basic, (none / 0)

                very basic, fundamental difference between the #2 people and the #1 people.  I can't imagine myself taking the #2 stance.  

                Of course, it's the #2 people who are lacking...something.

                •  Different slant (none / 0)

                  ..or they are NEEDING something - maybe a weird sense of nobility of purpose maybe.

                  There should have been incredible outrage the other day when the soldier asked why they had to dig around in trash heaps for their armor.  There was a little flurry, but certainly no big sense of any wrongness communicated by the people. If people truly were apalled at the death and dying, wouldnt they be screaming to the rooftops against their babies being put into such jeopardy? It defies explanantion and you have to believe that there has been a kind of emotional jiu jitsu - weakness turned to strength ocurring in their psyches.  

                   

                  Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

                  by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 03:35:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, my child (4.00 / 10)

              is going back to this shithole in January for the third time.  I listened to about 90 minutes of news today between CNN Daybreak, American Morning, and NPR through the day as I shuttled between meetings.  I heard about 60 seconds, TOPS, of coverage on the seven dead Marines.

              My son is a Marine.  I know what he has already scarificed (like a normal fucking life) for this piece of shit war that Shrub has gotten us into.  For there to be such little attention to this while Jim Carrey's upcoming movie gets five minutes of press is pornographic, in my opinion.  Force feed these images, along with the ones from the weekend of Iragi dogs eating corpses, to the scum politicians and corporate media until they puke their guts out.  These are the images I deal with every day.  I shield my wife from these stories for fear she will cut the testicles off of some politician, like Joe Lieberman (if ANY of you think he is right for Homeland Security come to Oklahoma and let's have lunch).

              If there is a Hell there is a loooooong line of bastards ready to burn for eternity in it.  Chief among my nominees are all of the soul-less, right-wing bastards who are ready to send my child to war while they, themselves, hid from every "opportunity" to serve.  Go to Hell--all of you!

              I am sorry for the emotional post, but I am really pissed off about this today.

              "It's been headed this way since the World began, when a vicious creature made the jump from Monkey to Man."--Elvis Costello

              by BigOkie on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 04:38:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can only say (none / 0)

                how very sorry I am for your son, you and your wife!  

                I think maybe you should just turn your wife loose and point her toward the White House.

              •  OMG (none / 0)

                I am so sorry!  I hope he stays safe.  Fuck Bush!

                McCain: Less jobs, more war.

                by Unstable Isotope on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 05:11:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I am so sorry--may he stay safe. Damn BushCo. (none / 0)

                Damn their using Other People's Kids.
              •  I'm so sorry for your pain (none / 0)

                which I can only imagine, but imagine very well, having a son of my own.

                And today it seems to be Scott Petersen all-the-time. Iraq gets less and less attention every day, I swear.

                And I do think a warning could have been provided--these photos are exremely gruesome and I am NOT the person and we are NOT the people, who need to see this.  

                •  Quite the contrary (4.00 / 3)

                  I think everyone should be FORCED to see these pictures.  This is REALITY, ladies and gentlemen, not the crap masquerading as such that replaced all the sitcoms we used to sort of like.  Every 17 year old should be required to see this for him or herself as a requirement for graduation from high school.  See how many of them sign up for Bush's stupid-assed war then.
                  •  Oh yeah. (none / 1)

                    The only reason Joe Lieberman is getting the offer from Bush is because the Governor of Connecticut is  a Republican, who would replace Holy Joe with a Republican.  That, and the fact that Joe would rather "work with" the Republicans than fight.
                  •  Absolutely (none / 0)

                    The right does not feel any misgivings about showing aborted fetuses to horrify people.  How about the horror of this?  Maybe if enough people were exposed to the realities of war, not the sanitized crap we see in the SCLM, we would lose our appetite for it.

                    Isn't it odd that such a large part of our population is so horrified by abortion, yet they readily accept the consequences of war?  Put in a straight forward way, their policy is: "We are pro life up until the time you are born.  After that, screw you."

                    "It's been headed this way since the World began, when a vicious creature made the jump from Monkey to Man."--Elvis Costello

                    by BigOkie on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 06:56:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  We should all have to stare these pictures down (none / 1)

                even those of us who already "know," because it's too easy to forget in the comfort of everyday life.  And really, I think a lot of people don't understand what war is if they haven't seen it.

                You should send a letter to your NPR station and tell them just what you said here.

                My heart just breaks thinking how you must feel.  I hope your son comes home healthy soon, and that they end this insanity.

                Damn those arrogant bastards who never had to risk anything important in their lives.

      •  Your gas...my hands (none / 1)

        in simple font across the full color image.  

        I like it, and would be more than happy to take several hundred.

        Any suggestions for a cheap way of printing these up with good weather resistance?

      •  Yeah (none / 0)

        I suggested that in a letter to the editor as a way to end the war faster.  They actually printed it.  And, shocking as these photos may be, I've seen far worse (my brother's murder).  And I'm told that German TV will take a camera inside a wrecked car to show you what happens when you fuck up at 150 mph.  And then of course, Mercedes-Benz was famous for using "fresh" cadavers in its crash tests - dummies weren't "precise" enough for accurate results.
      •  Yes, a warning dammit! (3.33 / 6)

        That kind of imagery should NOT be splashed on front pages around the country.  Why?

        1.  It's disrespectful to the patient.  I don't care how much outrage you have over the Iraq situation, the fact is those "results" are attached to a human being with family and friends, and if you would use their pain to further your own agenda, you're not any better morally or ethically than the freepers who put that soldier in harm's way in the first place.

        2.  Gore hounds.  These are the people who seek out trauma images because they think it's "cool."  When you make this stuff mainstream, you cater to those fucks who will use the stuff as entertainment, not issue-appropriate information.

        3.  Young children.  I don't have any kids, but I cannot imagine that those of you who do would want your five year old sitting in your lap to see that picture when you load the page.  That should be reason enough to keep the image below the fold, and put a disclaimer on the public portion of the page so that parents have the option to shoo their kids out of the room beforehand.

        I have no problem with the images being shown, provided some common sense and respect is used to make the presentation.  Honestly, I'm disappointed by the apparent lack of compassion and judgement in the decision to put that pic on the front page of a high-traffic blog.
        •  Calm down (4.00 / 4)

          The identity of the soldier in the picture is impossible to know: his face is completely concealed.

          Nobody can control how other people will react to images or information.  No doubt some pedophiles liked to watch Shirley Temple movies.  That seems beside the point.

          I agree that I would not put such pictures on the front page, but inside.  Nevertheless, people need to understand what war is all about. These images might well be disturbing to children but in fact, they see sanitized, distancing images of violence all the time on TV, video games -- isn't it even more important to protect Iraq children from having to see these things in real life, which they do, every day, by ending the war, than protecting your children from knowledge of reality?

          •  How about my kids (none / 1)

            and all the other military brats out there?  I would be incredibly pissed to see this on a gas pump, just as angry as at those who wave those photos of aborted fetuses.  My kids had a really tough time when their dad was in Afghanistan, and I tried to make sure they didn't find out about the occasional mortar flying over the camp, or the several NATO soldiers who died just before he got there, or how dangerous it was to fly into Kabul.  They didn't need to know that.  They worried enough without graphic images like this.  
            It's incredibly tough for kids when a parent is deployed.  It's even tougher when that parent is in a war zone.  They don't need to see photos like this.  
            My kids get the reality.  They have good imaginations.  They don't need the graphics.  And tramatizing American kids isn't gonna do any Iraqi child any good at all.  

            Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

            by jules too on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:06:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  qwertyui (none / 1)

              I certainly understand your feelings, and I can only try to imagine how tough it was for you.  The problem is, if people are shielded from the reality of war, they will much more easily accept it, which means that thugs like Bush and company will lead the country into more wars, and more children will have to worry about their parents sitting in a hole in a distant land in deadly danger, or actually have them come home with their limbs blown off, or dead.  When that happens, it won't do any good to hide the pictures, daddy will be sitting there in a wheelchair every day, or they'll be visiting his grave.  

              People need to understand what war really is.  Then they won't be cheering for it as though it's a football game.  And they won't vote for sociopaths like George W. Bush for president.

              •  I don't want to censor the photos. (none / 0)

                I strongly believe we should be seeing the bodies being flown home, photos like this one should be shown, all that.  I just don't think that they should be rammed down the throats of everyone all the time.  I know that I am doing the best thing for my kids by trying to shield them from the most horrific images and news and facts from this war.  
                On the grouchy/annoyed/totally pissed side, you have no right, nobody has the right to decide that MY kids should be seeing this.  Nobody has the right to force me to explain stuff like this to my kids if I feel they are better off not knowing about it.  

                Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

                by jules too on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 07:08:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  unclear (none / 0)

                  I'm not sure what you mean by saying you don't think the photos should be "rammed down the throats of everyone all the time."  That is far from occurring -- hardly anyone has seen these photos, they were published in the New England Journal of Medicine, and exactly one of them was presented on this web site.  I haven't heard of them being shown on television or reproduced in any newspaper.  So I believe the reality is the precise opposite of what you fear.

                  And as I said in my original comment, I don't think they should be on the front page of the newspaper, but inside.  That way, parents can decide if they want their children to see them.

                  That said, I believe that at an appropriate age, depending on the child, children should see such photos.  Children need to learn about reality, and they need to understand what war is all about, before they start getting romantic ideas about going off to be soldiers.

                  •  There are people in this thread (none / 0)

                    advocating showing these photos all over the place.  Front page of newspapers, on gas pumps, protests, handing out flyers, etc.  Some of these are appropriate, some are not.  

                    And as far as children go.  You may show your children photos like these.  You may use them to teach your children the horrors of war.  But that's it.  You have no rights over my children or anyone else's.  You don't get to make those decisions for me.  I personally feel that it will do far more harm than good, and I absolutely do not want my kids to see them.  You don't know my kids, you don't know what's best or right for them.  My kids already know all about how romantic it is to be a soldier from their dad -- they have seen the military up close and personal their whole lives.  

                    Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

                    by jules too on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:07:28 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  my parents kept a copy of WWII a history (none / 1)

          on the coffee table - as a child, i spent many hours looking at that book - looking at the horrific pictures - all the while thinking "how can anybody DO, this to another person!"

          that book made me the rabid advocate i am today.  should a child see such pictures?  WWII was b&w - less "gut-wrenching" prehaps, but still it was real.

          if we discuss with our children (five is way too young) at 9-10+ the consequences of our actions when they encounter it - maybe there would not be the quick rush to war when those children grow up.

          then again, maybe not - didn't georgie torture animals when he was little?  

          too much protection is not a good thing.  deliberate or unintended exposure can be a bad thing - but this is all the real world - kids have to be prepared to live in it - and to stop the insanity when they grow up.

        •  I think (none / 0)

          they should tattoo these pictures on every neocons foreheads, like a brand, so everyone can see what they've done to this country.

          McCain: Less jobs, more war.

          by Unstable Isotope on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 05:13:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely agree, but NOT with the figures... (none / 0)

        Kos you quote 9,766 wounded in action, take a look at the figures I reported about in my last diary.

        There have been 17,200 wounded troops treated at Landstuhl, the US military hospital in Germany, alone!

        This needs to be looked into, I suspect the administration is lying again, big surprise there.

        And much respect for not shying away from shocking pictures, people need to see more of the bloody truth.

        .
        .
        .
        We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in - some of us just go one god further
        -- Richard Dawkins

        by deafmetal on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 02:18:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  at least part of the explanation (none / 1)

          I think DoD is very parisimonious with the events that they label as "combat related" or "in action."  There are a lot of motor vehicle accidents, for example, because of bad roads and fast driving to try to beat ambushes; bizarre desert parasites and diseases; psychological trauma; and even assaults by one soldier on another, plus suicide attempts.  Those don't get counted by DoD, but they do show up at Landstuhl.

          Of course, that isn't to say they aren't also flat out lying.

    •  Shocking, but necessary (4.00 / 11)

      What if the SCLM showed these pictures on the national evening news or on the front pages of the newspapers?  What would that do to Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public's support for this war if they really knew what the injuries were like?

      When it comes to injuries, we get a lot of "rehab-at-Walter-Reed" stuff, but that's about it.

      •  These pix will change few minds (4.00 / 4)

        This will be the Republican view:

        As long as there are fags running around our streets and liberals at CBS and abortioins at the clinics, I don't want to hear it. The people respnsible for these atrocities are the Muslim insurgents. Why get mad at the president when some Arab had his finger on the detonator.

        This is not my view. I'm afraid it it the view of 51% of the voting public. I call it the Lemming vote

        The plural of anecdote is not data.

        by bobinson on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:45:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Where can I get... (4.00 / 3)

          a "Blame yourself, if you voted for Bush" bumper sticker ?
        •  I got the same response (none / 0)

          Finished talking with a co-worker just a few minutes ago.  I blamed Bush for the almost 1300 dead Americans.

          His response was, "It was the Iraqis that killed them".

          Then I responded that Bush sent them there dor no reason, underequipped and undermanned, but it didn't sink in his thick skull.

          Pathetic

          When the rest of the world decides to take care of the bully, I hope I'm not in Columbine.

          by georgeNOTw on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:32:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Remember... (none / 0)

            guns don't kill people, people do.

            "We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis D. Brandeis

            by VA6thDem on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 10:55:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Right . . . (none / 1)

            And who killed the 100,000 Iraqis?
            •  So what? (none / 0)

               How many Christian Iraqis have been killed?  These other Iraqis that you're getting all "worked up" over, it's their own fault for not [1] embracing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and [2] overthrown Saddam so we wouldn't have to.

               Am trying to think [sic] like a Fundagellical, there.  It's amazing how just writing two sentences like one of those American Taliban-types makes my skin crawl right out the door.  I'd better run catch it.  Later.

               BenGoshi
              _________________

              "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

              by BenGoshi on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 02:10:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Whoa there (none / 1)

                any number of Christian Iraqis have been killed, and their churches - of all sects -- are the targets of bombings by Muslim extremists.  Christians are being driven out of Iraq right now.  They are particularly subject to the wave of Muslim fundamentalism because they run the liquor stores in a lot of Iraq.  Of course, it was completely predictable that the invasion of Iraq would - and will - eventually lead to an Iran-like totalitarian fundamentalist Islamic regime where other religions are not tolerated, despite what I believe was a long Iraqi history of relative religious tolerance.  

                 By the way, I know the Episcopal bishops vehemently opposed the war, and I'm pretty sure the Catholic bishops did too, so be careful who you tar with that broad brush, OK?

                "From all that terror teaches, from lies of tongue and pen, from all the easy speeches that comfort cruel men . . . deliver us, good Lord."

                by md jeffersonian on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 07:27:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You know, given the level ... (none / 0)


                   ... or, in other words, the "calibre" of people who regularly read and post comments on this site, I've never felt it necessary to do one of those " <sarcasm> "  or  " </snark comment> " thingies after a phrase, sentence or paragraph.

                   If you would read, I mean /really read what I wrote, the entire thing, you would understand that I was "catharting" about the Religious Right Wing Nutjobs who hold such attitudes or beliefs.  Believe me, I got all weepy back in December 2002, seeing a news broadcast of Iraqi Christians celebrating Christmas in a Baghdad church, and me knowing that Bush was just itching to drop 500 lb bombs all over 'em . . .

                   As for Christians you actually know -- wow! really?! -- who actually no kidding opposed the war (get out!), well, guess what, you're right this very moment reading the words of yet another Christian who opposed, and opposes, the war.  Just imagine!

                   And, yes, I saw on the NBC Nightly News, just, what, last Friday or Saturday night?, a segment on Iraqi Christians fleeing their country in droves.

                   Funny thing:  do you remember back in and around the summer of '03 (you know, after the Mission was "Accomplished"?) all those fundagellical missionaries who were all going over to Iraq to convert all those Muslims into Southern Baptists and the like?  Remember?  Now it seems that, because of President Dunderhead's war, there are actually LESS Christians in Iraq than in Saddam's day due to a combination of American bombs, insurgent bombs and bullets, and a mass exodus (irony alert) due to all of the above...  Hmmmmm, fundamentalist Islamic Republic Accomplished, Chimperor McDubbleyew.

                   BenGoshi
                  _______________

                   BenGoshi
                  ________________

                  "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

                  by BenGoshi on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 07:58:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Glad to Know (none / 0)

                    that we basically agree.  On a broader topic, why is it that Christians like us aren't having a dialogue or at least any attempt at communicating with the fundamentalist folks about why this war (and almost all of this administration's policies for that matter) is anything but what Jesus would do.  I saw Jimmy Carter on TV the other night point out that Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, after all, not the Prince of War.  Are you ready to just give up on these folks and say they are beyond persuasion?  Do you think there are any of them that might actually put some stock in the beatitudes? Or are they all just hopeless cases?

                    "From all that terror teaches, from lies of tongue and pen, from all the easy speeches that comfort cruel men . . . deliver us, good Lord."

                    by md jeffersonian on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 07:57:34 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Getting started is the hardest part. (none / 0)


                       Over the past few months, I've been brainstorming on and honing "my message" on this, via dialogues on this website, DailyKos.  My primary, but not exclusive, weapons are The Beatitudes, the Matthew Chapter 6 and Matthew 25:31-46.  That said, I'm certainly not shutting the door on the rest of Holy Writ.  I've been reading a lot of Mencken, Twain and Jefferson lately, and will soon dive back into Shelby Spong.

                       But . . . how to actually get the dialogue going or arguments and positions "out there" is a stumper for me.  All I know is that it NEEDS to be done.  Maybe writing a book and getting on a lot of "morning shows" (e.g., "Today") is a start.  I'm not talking here about going to the edge of some of Shelby Spong's arguments (e.g., perhaps the resurrection was a wonderful hallucination -- that's outside the realm of "Christian Politics"), but about confronting the Religious Right with (1) the viewpoint that Christians should not act like war-loving assholes and (2) the scripture to back that up with.

                        What Websites or Blogs are out there, set up like Daily Kos (don't I wish!), just on this topic, i.e., Christians going toe-to-toe with the Right Wingnut likes of Falwell and Robertson?  Is the answer "none."

                       BenGoshi
                      ________________

                      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

                      by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:06:02 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well then (none / 0)

                        that's one of the things that needs to happen. Of course I'm too technically challenged to know anything about setting up a blog, but it does seem to me there is a lot to be said.  Maybe it is out there already - I have to admit I haven't looked.  

                           I think one of the problems is that most mainstream denominations, while able to take a generalized stance on questions like the war, are not prepared to lose members over something as transitory (in the eternal view of time anyway) as arguments on, say, the Christian's view of Rush Limbaugh.  Nor can most of them afford to have a single spokesperson out on the blogs or lecture circuit focusing primarily on the "better" Christian view of political issues. Not only don't the economics support it, but most congregations represent a diverse range of opinions, and some denominations (I'm thinking of Episcopalians here) are pretty dedicated to avoiding picking these sorts of fights. The one exception that proves the rule is the Catholic Church's enduring fight to make abortion illegal. In any event, what it needs is a few professors, authors, and lay people taking the fight to the media in an authentic and marketable way.  Have you found any such person or site?

                        "From all that terror teaches, from lies of tongue and pen, from all the easy speeches that comfort cruel men . . . deliver us, good Lord."

                        by md jeffersonian on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 05:03:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Re: your last question. (none / 0)


                           Sadly, No. (to quote a blog name).

                           Shelby Spong is "in the mix," but, I'm afraid, goes a little too far.  Not for me, mind you, but he loses credibility re:  rescuing the Bible from fundamentalism by going out on a speculative limb re: issues like (as I mentioned) the Resurrection.  That would alienate him from literally millions he would otherwise win over to a progressive political view of Christianity.  Actually, I think it's the Christian view of Christianity, but that's me -- uh, reading the Bible.

                           Air America and the notion of Gore (someday . . .) having a political network is / are fine, but a Christian Middle (it's NOT "left wing" to believe in the words and admonishments of Jesus, it's CHRISTIAN) Network would be, uh, a Godsend.  

                           Still waiting.  Are there no Christian Billionaires out there?  

                           BenGoshi
                          ________________

                           P.S. -- no snarky comments about Robertson or Falwell, I don't count them as Christians.

                           

                          "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

                          by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 05:42:14 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting logic (none / 1)

            If Junior ordered 1300 soldiers to go diving for pearls in the Antarctic, I wonder if your co-worker would say it was the freezing water that killed them, not their CiC.
        •  AND (none / 0)

          --as I say upstring - these are Christian warriors...their wounds demonstrate their affiliation with our cause.  They are defenders of the faith and their blood is to be celebrated and revered.

          I say - hit the MONEY, over and over - the MONEY and what its going to cost them.  Also, stuff like not having equipment and armor...that will work better than showing our poor wounded for them to champion as defenders of a somehow justified cause.

          Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

          by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:20:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  about those rehab pics (4.00 / 7)

        Those "rehab-at-Walter-Reed" pics let people delude themselves into thinking they "know the true cost" of the war.  In a post-surgical, clean T-shirt, "look-at-that-brave-soldier/hero-overcoming-obstacles" format that plays like a Lifetime feel good movie of the week.

        While I found the picture Kos put up on main-page hard to look at (especiallly just after lunch), my discomfort isn't even a measurable fraction of the soldier on that table. It should be required viewing for anyone who thinks our soldiers need to be there. Especially for those who are sending them.

        Can't go to Austin? Come to Netroots Nation in Second Life. Ask me how!!

        by brillig on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:12:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Required viewing at the White House (none / 1)

          Personally, I would like to see a picture of each dead US soldier placed in the Oval Office. Am not talking about their 'official' military picture either...if you know what I mean.

          Make GWB and his administration look at what they have wrought on a daily basis.

          I also think it is a travesty that Bush or Condi or Rummy are not in attendance at any of the military funerals.

          It's so easy for them to send faceless, unknown soldiers to Iraq. They should be made, forced if necessary,  to see a fraction of the end result.

          •  hmmm..... (none / 0)

            That would be a nice protest.  If you could put up a wall of photos right in front of the white house, or on the side where everybody drives in, with 8" x 10" photos of each and every casualty in the war.  
      •  They'd stop watching that channel n/t (none / 0)

    •  I was thinking the same thing (none / 1)

      I don't want to have the truth hidden, but it would be nice to have it below the fold with a warning on top.  It's nice to be able to mentally prepare yourself.
      •  Yeah, I don't want to seem. . . (none / 0)

        . . .like a ninny, but I have a toddler who sometimes climbs in my lap while I'm online. Good thing she's downstairs right now.

        I'm not up for the "what's that, Mommy?" discussion on a picture like this right now.

        What would Gandhi do? "The cause of liberty becomes a mockery if the price to be paid is the wholesale destruction of those who are to enjoy liberty."

        by Robespierrette on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:07:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  with all due respect to you and others (none / 1)

        If we here at Dkos can't handle it, then we are hypocrits in saying this should be all over the SCLM.

        When the 4 guys were torched in Fallujah, it was all over the newspapers and TV, and that had a huge impact on support for the war.  

        Unfortunately Americans forget quickly, and support rose again.

        We need to keep these images front and center.

        "I don't want to name names, but they know themselves." Koffi Annan

        by Sue in NH on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 11:44:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Who said I can't handle it? (4.00 / 3)

          I can handle it just fine, and would have clicked on the link and looked at the picture.  I'm no hypocrite.  Images that are gruesome should be more widely available to the public.   I would like to see the images in newspapers, but not on the front page.  They should be on the inside with a warning of what is to come.  It's not nice to slap somone in the face with this kind of stuff.  Especially when it's someone who doesn't need to be slapped becasue they are already aware of the issues. I'm not saying he shouldn't have posted the pictures - just that I would have preferred it had not been on the front page.  

          Responsible people will look, because of human nature and because they will feel obligated. People who don't want to look will have to deal with why they aren't willing to face the reality of war.  I dealt with this issue when the video of the first beheading came out. I felt that I should look at it, because I wanted to understand what was happening.  I looked, and it was horrible.  I haven't looked at another one, though, because once is enough.  More would be gratuitous.  

        •  Oh my... (4.00 / 3)

          Why do I possibly want to watch this? Is this rotten.com?

          Do you really think this picture 'shows the realities of war'? It does not even come close to the horrors of war. Your pro or con position on war will not be changed just because of this poor soldier. People KNOW what war is about, we're constantly fed with pictures of horror and perversion. How many pictures of starving children, killed Rwandians, gassed Jews, burnt Contractors did we all see as of yet? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS probably, every fucking night, and it didn't change a damn thing.

          Am I damn hypocrite, because I am offended by this? Quite the contrary I think...

          Pictures like this make us numb, they turn us into cold beings. Beheadings, ripped off arms, whatever - You people make me sick. Please dailykos, stop this shit.

          •  You make some good points (none / 0)

            When I was a kid, just seeing somebody get shot on screen was shocking. Then came "Bonnie and Clyde" and the bodies being riddled with bullets. SO very graphic. Nowadays you have to show the blood spurting and the brains flying to get any sort of reaction.

            The more we shock, the more it takes to become  shocked.

            Seeing junior high kids at the Holocaust Museum and how very immured they are to those horrific images--are we doing any good showing this stuff? Are we justy creating a more hardened generation?

             

    •  Are our troops warned? (2.50 / 2)

      With all due respect how much warning do you think our troops get before their limbs are blown off their bodies?  

      I will not die an unlived life. Not in fear, I will live out loud and on the record. Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 1-800-787-3224 (TTY)

      by caliberal on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:35:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think they are, actually (none / 0)

        For one, they are in a war zone.  They also know when they are participating in high risk activities.  They certainly don't just click on a web page that is usually text and see a bloody body while they're drinking coffee. I imagine the attack itself comes suddently, but they are always aware that it might happen. That is one of the problems, actually,  Men and women who live like that for an extended period often suffer emotional problems later on.  PTSD and such.  I see no reason that people who are not fighting the war should be subject to the same trauma as the people who are.  
        •  Are they warned before they enlist? (none / 0)

          THAT'S when they need to know.

          And, you can't really believe that looking at a photo of an anonymous stranger while you're safe at home is anything like the trauma of someone seeing it in person, seeing someone they know blown open, fearing that it will happen to them . . .

          I don't think looking at the real images is desensitizing for most of us.  I think a lifetime of seeing sensationalized images of violence might desensitize you to the real thing.

          We can't be afraid to look, to know.  It's real people, it's happening.  That's the problem.

    •  Just remember... (2.80 / 5)

      ....John Edwards says he has no regrets voting for this.

      Ditto John Kerry (d-Skull and Bones).

    •  no need to be polite (none / 0)

      when this war is raging

      we need to be tougher, we need to fight harder, we need to push Americans on this

      time to fight fire with fire

      Time for nice is up. Declare congnitive warfare and win against the neo-cons.

      by allaboutframing on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 06:45:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Should have been a warning (none / 0)

      My wife, who is a pacifist, just got slammed by this image.  She is dead set against the war.  There is no reason she should have been subject to this.  

      There is no reason one couldn't have offered a link to click in order to see the image.

      No reason.

  •  Dear God (3.50 / 2)

    n/t

    Hostage smiles on presidents, freedom scribbled in the subway. It's like night and day. - Joni Mitchell

    by jazzlover on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:24:42 AM PDT

  •  good Lord, that is horrifying and sad(n/t) (none / 0)

    We went to war based on intelligence given to us from a guy named Curveball. Why isn't this the biggest scandal ever?-Jon Stewart to Wolf Blitzer.

    by JP2 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:26:08 AM PDT

  •  Why Does the New England Journal of Medicine... (4.00 / 8)

    hate America?

    This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

    by GreenSooner on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:26:22 AM PDT

    •  After 9/11 (none / 0)

      and the subsequent Anthrax scare (what ever happned to that, btw) there was a push by BushCo and Ashcroft to get  prereview of research articles, so they could be checked for information that might be useful to terr'is. If they had issues with the research, they would have the option of preventing its publication.

      The research community went ballistic and the admin backed down.

      It wouldn't surprise me one iota to see the admin call for a prereview of NEJM articles before they go to press.

      When it happens to the NEJM remember where you heard it first!

  •  Thanks for posting this (none / 1)

    For what it's worth, I posted a diary on this on Friday.  But diaries go by so fast . .

    more on this

  •  And what for??? (4.00 / 5)

    Commentary on the cost in blood and treasure needs the other side of the equation:

    What are we getting for this price?

    In the end, we will probably begin withdrawing in stages after some semblance of an election which will bring an Iran-style Shiite theocracy to Iraq.

    Maybe then the U.S. public will fully absorb what we have paid this gruesome price for: another enemy on the side of jihad.

    •  Isn't it obvious (4.00 / 3)

      No one will ever commit another terrorist act for the rest of eternity. Duh.

      The plural of anecdote is not data.

      by bobinson on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:32:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bingo! (none / 0)

      I couldn't agree more.  While I know how crass it sounds to talk about doing a "cost/benefit analysis" of a war, I think that's exactly the way more people should have looked at this horrible mess.  We're paying an enormous price in death and injury, endless damage to the US's image around the world, a quarter of a TRILLION frickin' dollars, and no benefit.  

      I deeply love the US, but there are times I want to walk around wearing a Canadian flag T-shirt and make believe it's someone else's country that's responsible for this nightmare.

      •  Trust me, it doesn't help that much. (none / 0)

        I am a Canadian. For me it really is someone else's country doing this.

        It doesn't make that much difference. I still feel horrified and angry and depressed as all hell. And I didn't even get a vote.

        Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

        by Canadian Reader on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:08:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none / 1)

        I loved America too.  Where has she gone?  I feel like the American Indians must have felt, watching the country they knew disappear forever.  

        Where is the America that stood up and raised hell until we got out of Vietnam?  Where is the America that spent day after day reading about a little thing called Watergate and getting more pissed off by the minute, until we made sure the criminals in DC were shipped out on a rail, sent to prison for their illegal acts?  Where is that America??  That's the country I loved.  That's the country I want back.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4100+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

        by Miss Blue on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:17:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand (4.00 / 3)

          ..but the generation of cause and effect, belief in consequence and taking care of each other is just about died off.  No one remembers the Depression or the overwhelming sacrifice but sense of unified purpose during WWII.

          We are about the excess of individualism now; the celebration of exceptionalism (what I believe, am is the best and only) and entitlement (because I am special, I deserve whatever i want).  We are an exclusive social club whether its America as manifest destiny club or America as Christianity is the only way, club.  We have become the aggregate, unassailable "I" - there is no pluralism - only singularism.  They win cause they always stick together in their singularity.

          What works to break this up? Unfortunately, in my opinion - suffering, deep, prolonged and relentless suffering.  There is no happy feeling solution in my opinion.  They are too cocksure, too walled off from information other than what they want to see/hear.  All that is left is what both Generals Grant and Sherman knew and practiced in the civil war...let suffering happen and let it go until they stop and not until then. Unfortunately for us, we go right along with them. Be prepared, though - its definitely coming.

          Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

          by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 12:40:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It took many years (none / 0)

          for resistance to the Vietnam war to have any effect on policy.

          Actually, things are moving faster this time around.

        •  I love America today. (none / 1)

          I am an American.  I am America.

          America is me and the other 250,000 Americans protesting the occupation at the RNC.  It is 20,000 protesters in Seattle.  It is 150,000 in San Francisco.  It will be the thousands on J20 in WDC.

          America is waiting in line to watch Moore's movie.  America is crying, depressed, angry over this war.

          This war is not America.  No, it is an act of the government - a government that lies to the people and to the world.  The government's war is an illegal and immoral war - not an American war.

          America are the people in my community.  It is women in black and candle light vigils.

          Do not hand America and what we are to the hateful and evil people who have stolen our government.

  •  Horrors (4.00 / 14)

    I think they should put these photos on the White House china so everyone who eats there has to look at this every time they sit down for a nice cushy meal in a comfortable, well-decorated and fully staffed dining room at the taxpayers expense.

    I think Bush and the entire administration should have to gag on this continually until they get our boys home.  

    "When people show you who they really are, believe them." - Maya Angelou

    by Pennsylvanian on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:29:19 AM PDT

  •  aaaagghh! (none / 0)

    Horrible. How do you type the emotion of being repulsed and horrified? Awful.

    My husband's cousin is being processed out of Iraq right now, having been there a year, and has not been wounded, at last word. I hope he doesn't get sent back.

    •  My cousin's young son (none / 0)

      ships out next week.  He's 20 or 21, I think.

      He's just a kid who fell for the "be all you can be" advertising.

      When he signed up, they told him he wouldn't be called for at least a year and that by then, "the whole thing in Iraq will be over".  He was called up in 6 months time.  

      Now, they tell him he is going to Kuwait, not Iraq.  My cousin is frantic.

      Wishing God speed to your husband's cousin.

  •  Why should our beautiful minds (3.93 / 15)

    bother with these things?

    <reference to Barbara Bush- do not troll rate please>

    Grandpa Simpson is a cartoon character...John McCain is an actual person...

    by wry twinger on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:30:31 AM PDT

  •  Whoa (4.00 / 10)

    I think that all the people with yellow ribbons need to see this.  Real support for troops comes after they come home, if they come home.

    Good God, that's someone's son, brother, husband, lover, uncle, dad, grandson, best friend, etc.  And, he now has NO ARMS because of what???
    I will say it again, this war is just fucking wrong!  Rumsfield should have to sit with each and everyone of these men or women and look them in the eye and tell them how the administration did the best that they could, but they get what they get.

    I wish I was clever enough to figure out something profound to place here.

    by boocilla69 on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:32:10 AM PDT

    •  fetishization (4.00 / 7)

      Just as Bush-loving anti-abortion dittoheads spout the rhetoric of "pro-life" by focusing on protecting fetuses and conveniently not caring about what happens to the saved babies once they are born, many of the yellow ribbon people spout the rhetoric of "support the troops" by focusing on protecting Bush and his policies from criticism, and conveniently not caring about what actually might be needed to materially, physically support the people in the field and keep them from losing limbs.  It's two types of fetishization.
      •  Absolute (none / 0)

        truth...you expressed what I have been feeling for years now...thanks.

        Since anti-abortion types are so anxious to show us pictures of aborted fetuses (gruesome in it's own right), I wonder how they'd feel if anti-war types started parading around with 3' x 5' pictures like this and showing up at the right-wingers homes to protest.

        God, I hate all of this...when will we be delivered?

        The Meek Shall Inherit NOTHING

        by LickBush on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 09:50:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Got my sig from a bumpersticker (4.00 / 2)

          I saw recently. Does the anti-abortion crowd think about how many children have been bombed out of existence in Iraq? About how many pregnant mothers were standing at the wrong bus stop at the wrong time? About the kids who have been orphaned and are now living on the streets of Baghdad or Basra or Mosul?

          You read in the newspaper about psychos who go off on a shooting rampage and kill a bunch of people in their office. How is our reaction to 9/11 any different? There were a lot of people in this country who wanted someone to die because they were in emotional pain. But these people don't have to suffer any immediate consequences, unless they have a family member serving in Iraq. Of course ultimately they are paying a price in higher deficits because of war spending, higher long-term oil prices, the devaluing of the dollar because the rest of the world can't stand us any more and is ready to give a second look at China and the EU.

          The ignorance of their petty bloodlust makes me ill. And the fact that my tax dollars go to fund this whole fiasco makes the bile rise in my mouth.

        •  It's inappropriate (3.00 / 2)

          I think it's inappropriate for Rotten.com style pictures to be placed in plain view for unsuspecting people to stumble across. Young people interested in politics can't help but see the so-called "tame" picture on the main page.

          My disgust extends in equal measure to the sickos that display pictures of aborted fetuses.

          This is a clear case where "censorship" is reasonable in a public forum.

          Of course Kos is a private forum, but that means all I can really do is avoid the website, down-rate people that display pictures like these, or ask Kos to show more restraint.

          "Don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34

          by Jonathan4Dean on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 03:20:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I support freedom of life... (none / 0)

        Exercise your right to life. JustSayNoToTheDraft.com
    •  Absolutely EVERYTIME (4.00 / 2)

      I pass a vehicle (usually one that gets about 5 miles per gallon) all pimped out in Bush/support the troops paraphernalia, I want to leave them a token of my disgust.

      I have to print out some of these photos with a nice note thanking them for their vote for this. I want to blast these numbnuts' heads out of their asses...if only for a few seconds---I'm not sure that kind of stupid really can be cured.

      This is going to be like the remains of WWI: a generation of vets broken in body, mind and soul...coming home to nothing. Another lost generation if this folly drags on for the duration of Bush's term, if not longer.

      Peter Vansittart, "Voices from the Great War":
      "As a small boy in Southsea, I saw streets disfigured by ragged, unwanted ex-soldiers, medalled, but ill, blind, maimed, selling matches, bootlaces, notepaper, trundling barrel-organs or standing with a melancholy dog or monkey beside a decrepit hurdy-gurdy. Whether they were pleading or abusive, resigned or menacing, they appalled me. Their wretchedness suggested that, in overthrowing Germany, they had earned some monstrous penalty now being... enacted."

      •  But you can... (none / 1)

        It's pretty easy to print such images on adhesive backed paper and add them to that collection of W stickers. With some effort, you can even do it with waterproof ink on vinyl so it lasts longer.

        And if it goes on a window, it comes off with a razor blade and elbow grease, so it's not like it does actual damage to the car. After all, the thing we want to affect is the brain of the driver, not the paint job of the car.

        Not that I would ever do such a thing. It's vandalism and could easily land you in jail. And with a photo like this and some appropriate words, maybe even in Gitmo.

        "That which I am writing about so tediously may be obvious to someone whose mind is less decrepit." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

        by Mad Dog Rackham on Mon Dec 13, 2004 at 03:29:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wouldn't want to hurt the paint.... (none / 0)

          This druggie friend of mine kept a stack of Kerry stickers in his car, and when he came across an auto pimped out in Bush stickers (usually a giant truck or SUV), he would slap a Kerry sticker on the Bush-mobile.  He said he started on the glass, but after the SBVT smear he started putting them on the paint of the more nefarious trucks.  He almost got caught a few times by big rednecks that would have ripped him apart, but that only added to the thrill.

          Not that I would personally recommend this, but those big truck driving rednecks are pretty obnoxious and it's not like they would hesitate to beat up a gay person or something.  "Those who live in hate shall have their car violated by hate."

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 01:19:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Liberals need to wear yellow ribbons (none / 0)

      out of our love for the victims of this war.

      Don't hand love of American to war mongers

    •  the body beneath (none / 0)

      One of the most disturbing things about this photo is not necessarily the grisly remnants of arms with the hands blown off, but the healthy, strong body attached to them.  A young body that had so much potential but will now face hard times ahead.
  •  Masks the Effects (4.00 / 8)

    When I hear about the heroic efforts of the medical teams in Iraq and Germany, I can't help but think that it is a double edged sword.  On the one hand, it is wonderful that modern medical miracles can save the lives of so many wonded.  On the other hand, I believe that it shields the public from the extent of harm the war is causing because permanently disabled troops can be easily 'forgotten' or 'hidden,' whereas a fatality rate that is double or triple what we have now would probably have pushed Americans past the "tipping point" in demanding an end to this atrocity.
    •  I agree (4.00 / 2)

      As many here have mentioned, the number of soldiers with traumatic brain injuries from this war has increased by an incredible amount -- because more soldiers are surviving wounds which previously would have killed them and because vital organs are protected, even if their heads aren't.

      Add in amputations, of which I imagine there is a similar increase, and you have thousands who do not figure in the the public consciousness and therefore in the cost of this criminal war.

    •  No American life should be lost for this (none / 0)

      immoral and illegal occupation.

      Liberals oppose the war because of love for America and for all Americans.

      We do not wish the death or harm of anyone - American or Iraqi.  

      It is immoral and stupid to wish for greater deaths in war.  We oppose killing and death, and we should celebrate each life saved.

      The photo of the solider injured is equally as unjust as is the following photo.  Bush is to blame for both tragic events.  

    •  sure does (none / 0)

      On the news, 1200 dead doesn't sound so bad out of 140,000 soldiers. That's about 1% dead. Now consider a lowball estimate of 10,000+ wounded badly enough to require medical evacuation. At 10% those odds aren't looking so good now. Now considering that some of those 140,000 might have safer posts like on a ship or a desk job, the odds of a solider on the ground in Iraq are looking even worse. Why aren't we emphasizing this more? 1 in 10 of our soldiers have come back burned, amputated or dead. No one would send one of their own family members with those odds.
  •  Mangled lives (none / 0)

    Paul McCartney's current wife won some sort of peace activism award for her work crusading against abandoned mines that were blowing people's legs off in former war zones.  We need someone who can take up the crusade and be a clear figurehead to convey the insanity of current administration policy:  sending our soldiers in unarmed Humvees and (often) without even body armor into situations where they are bound to incur these extremity injuries that blast their legs and hands off.
  •  God. (none / 0)

    That's horrific. That poor soldier... and for what?

    I wonder what snarky, callous thing Rumsfeld would have to say to him if ever he asked "Why did this happen to me?"

    •  Hmm- I heard something he said recently (none / 0)

      You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time," Mr.