Do comments have a place in blogs

It was with surprise that I saw David Winer, one of the net's pioneers, talk smack about blog comments.

More recently, the godfather of blogging Dave Winer, former CEO of UserLand, told me that comments are not an intrinsic part of a Weblog and have basically failed after a brief honeymoon period in the early history of blogs. "I think a blog is a publication, and publications have proven that letters to the editor are useful," Winer said. "But blogs with comments are not letters to the editor. Letters to the editor are edited, they're selected, and that selection process is a very important aspect of it."

Instead, Winer thinks commenters should simply run their own blog if they want to comment.

Wow. Winer's blog, Scripting News, doesn't have comments. But the benefits of online communities are so readily apparent, that they would seem beyond reproach to me. Some bloggers would rather not run communities since, truth be told, it is serious, time-consuming work. But to dismiss comments as "failed" is breathtaking.

How many of you think comments have failed?

To say that blogs are a publication, and should merely run "letters to the editor" befits a luddite, not a former web pioneer. Tragic.

•  Yes

  I think comments are an absolute failure.

  Sorry just had to do that.

  by Pops on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:11:08 PM PDT

  •  Your

    comment is incorrect.

    by rx scabin on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:12:05 PM PDT

    •  No comment

      by Zackpunk on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:38:00 PM PDT

      •  When comments have comments

        every comment becomes its own blog.

        by wegerje on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 04:44:08 AM PDT

•  Comments are why I come here!

  Perhaps blogs with comments are no longer really "blogs," per se.  Perhaps it's something a step further, in an evolutionary sense...  

  by yatdave on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:12:18 PM PDT

  •  perhaps they are

    free-speech-reducing propaganda machines

    by Fran for Dean on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:15:09 PM PDT

  •  I second that

    I love the comments, at least on Kos. Other blogs' comments . . .well I leave it to their commentors to comment on.

    by zic on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:17:04 PM PDT

    •  i agree

      i'm fairly new to blogs, but i prefer those with comments.  i particularly prefer the kos format for commentary, where there are distinct threads.  at atrios, you just get this sea of disorder in the comments, sixty different conversations all running together, to the point of near-schizophrenia.  but not at kos, because it's all so clearly delineated.  

      allowing reader comments in general is important because it gives the readers a more active role.  reading is inherently passive.  yet, when readers are able to respond and contribute to a blog and are encouraged to do so, then, for the most part, it enables a more thoughtful and thorough discussion of the issues, which leads to a greater understanding.  often, points not raised by the blogger appear in the comments, and the reader gets the benefit of these insights which they may not find elsewhere.  it's better for everyone.

      by dbfactor on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:52:47 PM PDT

      •  I also agree with what is said above.

        Also, the rating of comments is sort of like a community editing process where the real off the wall types are edited out.

        by delver rootnose on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:25:19 PM PDT

        •  I agree that I like Kos' threads

          But as the operator of a "cheap" (ie free) blog, the best I can do for comments is Haloscan, which doesn't thread. It does, however, allow me to delete posts and ban individuals (or their ISPs, at least. But I do enjoy reading most of the comments I get (I don't get a lot, though) and I have made some "online" friends because we can converse through the comments on my blog and on theirs. CathiefromCanada

          by CathiefromCanada on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:51:17 PM PDT

          •  Big-time bloggers have outgrown Haloscan

            Haloscan is fine if you're going to have 10 comments per item. But the 600-comment threads on Atrios or BFA last fall were not very useful. For one thing, they're not threaded, which is not very helpful; there is no easy way to remove the chaff from the genuine conversations.

            Here, we have ratings to ensure the discussions remain (for the most part) civil and to eradicate jokesters, agent provocateurs or spammers; diaries to publish up-to-the minute information which would be off-topic on the main threads; and a vast pool of knowledgeable people to shoot down bullshit.

            After all, maybe Winer is right: site such as this one may have become something more than blogs. I would say they've become much more than blogs. They're online communities. Blogs are all about technology, communities are about people.

            by ClaudeB on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:38:10 PM PDT

            •  Blogs can't grow, communities can

              
              After all, maybe Winer is right: site such as this one may have become something more than blogs. I would say they've become much more than blogs. They're online communities. Blogs are all about technology, communities are about people.

              
              

              I don't think comments work.  I think that what is happening are web forums and that is that I have been into for a long time.  When Dean started out with comments I thought it was interesting but wondered if it could ever work.  And of course it does not.  The thing that has gotten me to start to spend my limited time here (rather than at a gated law-related forum on the old Delphi site is first of all that there are a lot of active liberals here, second of all because it has protections that prevent it from being brought messed up right wing trolls (perhaps pretending to be other people) and most important the threading features and the ability to start ones own thread.

              
              

              So yes I think that the success of the DailyKos is in large part based on the failure of  standard blogs with comments and on advancement in the technology  for hosting web discussion communities.  So it is something different, it is a community, but it is also about technology and software.

              
              

              by Fred in Vermont on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 04:27:49 AM PDT

              •  moderation systems

                Look at slashdot, they deal with quite a bit of comments but the moderation system (with all its flaws) does keep things organized and the crap towards the bottom.

                Its crazy to run a massive traffic site, allow comments, and not have a moderation system in place like Dean's blog or a number of political blogs.  Its a lot like "letters to the editor" except the moderators (which are usually users) rate the posts themselves and act as editors selecting a letter.

                by skallas on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 06:49:02 AM PDT

  •  Same here...

    
    I suppose there is a grey line between a blog with comments that generally only gets one or two comments per entry, and something like dKos where comments are what makes it special.  I don't know where that line should be though.

    If this isn't a blog, we need to come up with a cool sounding moniker to use instead.

    by ericy on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:29:26 PM PDT

    •  It's a blog

      that got crossed with an internet bulletin board, maybe.  The result when it's done well is better than either a blog or a board could be on its own.

      The result when done badly is not something I visit.

      by cinnamondog on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:37:00 PM PDT

      •  More of a cross between

        a blog and newsgroup, I think.  It's a kind of moderated and directed newsgroup.  Maybe it should get a new name.  But what?  Unfortunately, I'm too tired to be clever...

        by yatdave on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:47:44 PM PDT

        •  How bout...

          a "Kos"

          by Jumbo on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:19:45 AM PDT

        •  Collaborative Media

          I named it a long time ago. Unfortunately, people have been so obsessed with blogs ever since that my name rarely gets used. But dKos is collaborative media.

          And as for Winer, I think he's mostly right. Comments on most blogs are generally a failure. But it's not a failure of concept -- it's a failure of implementation. Comments could be a valuable addition to almost any blog, if they were implemented in a way that makes sense for that blog.

          by rusty on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:20:13 AM PDT

  •  I find it insulting

    Some blogs toggle comments on and off for certain posts.  I actually find it rude when comments are turned off some of the time.  It's like the author is saying, "I'll listen to you...when I'm in the mood."    It seems very elitist.

    Either have them always on or always off, or else you'll leave a bad impression with me.  

    by TrentL on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:43:36 PM PDT

  •  Bloging as a tool...

    The most powerful aspect of a blog's comment section is the ability to link to source documents.  Commenters can argue a point of view siting their sources. In the process a body of knowledge can be built up for all to benefit from and use to dismantle arguments coming from our friends on the right. If same is fully searchable...the possibilities boggle the mind. Copyright is the fly in the ointment.

    by PhilTR on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:57:14 PM PDT

  •  A step further, in an evolutionary sense...

    ...toward FidoNet, circa 1990.
    

    by trevzb on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:40:55 PM PDT

•  Winer is clueless

  online communities are filling an important need to vent and discuss.

  Until the Bush regime outlaws them, of course.

  by zoey on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:13:33 PM PDT

  •  Not clueluess, but...

    ...it is fair to say that Winer's style rubs many people the wrong way.  The way he deleted 3,000 weblogs without warning, the way he childishly forked RSS, and the way he dissed the open source crowd because they didn't want to fix his MacBird code for free are three big examples that come to mind.

    To give Winer his due, he was one of the first bloggers.  However, Dave Winer not wanting comments on blogs says a lot more about Dave Winer than it does about Blogs.

    by ckerr on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:50:58 PM PDT

•  A suggestion

  Kos, perhaps you can have people respond to your question by writing diary entries with the answer.  After all, comments are useless.  Man oh man, do I hate comments.  That said, I think I'm going to write a diary saying "Yes, I think comments have failed."

  <pukes at the thought of people liking comments>

  by Fran for Dean on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:13:47 PM PDT

•  Not here

  But at other blogs in other formats, I never even read them.

  Non-threaded comments like at Atrios are very difficult to extract anything useful from. And the comments themselves are lower quality I think as a result.

  Diaries in Scoop are another thing all together though. And the threaded comments below allow for meaningful discussion.

  Scoop is the future.

  by TocqueDeville on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:14:35 PM PDT

  •  some very funny clever people there

    i love the comments @ ATRIOS, there's some very funny clever people there.

     BUT

      it is hard to read & the trolls have figured out that YEAH you can PHYSICALLY destroy a thread!
    

    by n69n on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:37:54 PM PDT

    •  i wonder why

      Atrios hasnt bothered to get away from Haloscan. its so retro.

      by juls on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:41:38 PM PDT

      •  I like it

        I can read it at work without being obvious.

        by lennywick on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:47:12 PM PDT

      •  Scoop

        Agreed. And I think the ever-widening gap in traffic between Kos and Atrios (Atrios used to be bigger, once upon a time) is surely due to the Scoopification of this site.

        by DavidNYC on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:22:29 PM PDT

    •  Used to read Atrios

      but the comments were too much like a rhetorical pissing match. Now I just rely on other dKossers who like that sort of thing to report on what's useful from over there.

      by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:52:34 PM PDT

  •  Yes, Scoop turns

    comments into conversations, arguments, brawls...
    And so easy to skip the ones that don't interest you.

    But I do wish more people would simply rate a comment when they don't have anything to add.

    The Diaries are way out of control - some great stuff quickly disappears to make room for reptitive, redundant and derivative Diaries.  Since self control doesn't seem to be working, it looks to me as if some much stricter guidelines are needed -- a daily limit (two for trusted and one for non-trusted) and weekly limit (four for trusted and two for non-trusted) - maybe that way people would save their space for more interesting postings and spend a bit more time writing them better.

    by Marie on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:13:42 PM PDT

    •  Solution?

      Would it be possible to write some code that would allow you to delete diaries like spam. Or do things like filter out diaries with less than a certain amount of comments. I think it's better to put the control of diary display in the hands of the end user instead of making stricter rules for everybody.

      by Jumbo on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:25:29 AM PDT

      •  Deleting Diaries

        doesn't exactly put it in the control of the end users.

        Self policing rules are necessary when people abuse or over-indulge on a treat.  Some excellent Diaries receive very few comments and some lousy ones get lots of comments.  Rules that encourage self-control and monitoring may be all that's needed.

        Diarists should also be responsible for deleting Diaries when informed that it more properly belongs as a comment to another diary or main page thread.  Anyone posting two or more diaries a day, seven days a week should get their own blog because they are hogging too much space and drowning out other voices.  If we like her/his voice enough, we would visit that blog.  Billmon, Steve Soto and Steve Gilliard did that, and their comments and main page pieces at dKos were always first rate.  Few contributors will be as good as those three (MB an obvious exception) and the explosion in the quantity of words here is depreciating the quality.

        by Marie on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 10:08:54 AM PDT

•  He can join Einstein...

  ...who said of quantum physics, "God does not play dice."

  -fink

  by fink on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:14:52 PM PDT

  •  Einstein was misunderstood

    god doesn't play dice, he plays roulette.

    by pyrrho on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:38:17 PM PDT

•  Weiner

  Weiner is indisputably a genius, but also not a great understander of humanity or the present day.

  Instead, Winer thinks commenters should simply run their own blog if they want to comment.

  In a perfect world, where trackback was an exact protocol and desktop bloggin tools are as easy to use as a simple word-processor, this will be where it is at. But that's not where we are now.

  Weiner lives 10 years in the future. That's why it's important to listen to him. That's also why it's important not to take all his recommendations at face value.

  by Outlandish Josh on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:14:58 PM PDT

  •  As a victim of Radio Userland

    er...I meant "customer" of Radio Userland, which I believe Mr. Whiner came up with, I consider anything he says to be utterly useless.

    For one thing, the comments on the Radio servers are so unreliable I had to dump them for Haloscan. Perhaps if Mr. Weiner's former company had the wherewithal to actually SUPPORT comments he would have a more favorable opinion of them.

    And I'm being kind. My fellow bloggers in Salon Blogs, especially old-timers, have said much nastier things amongst ourselves...

    (and I will certainly get off of Radio Loserland as soon as I have a staff of three to disentangle my 3-year-old blog from it).

    by decembersue on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:28:57 PM PDT

  •  Even in a perfect world

    I can't really see how this guy's vision is an improvement.  Everybody running separate blogs takes away the possibility of conversation - multivocal and contemporaneous which is the basis for community and action.

    We always talk about free speech as a foundational element of democracy, but that's really only a piece of it.  What makes speech important is what comes after it, rebuttal or correction or improvement speech.  The acts of not only speaking but also of listening and feeding back.  The far too isolating model of speech in a one way communications model (what pre-electronic media basically were: the famous and sometimes not so famous would "speak" while the rest of us just listened and reminded ourselves that they had the right to speak) doesn't really build democracy.  And that's part of the reason our political system has deterorated as it has, we focus only on the utterances and not on the acts.  We don't take free speech to the next level and make free conversation, free association and collective action. We spend all the time looking for the right speech to center on.

    by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:46:27 PM PDT

    •  Your comment reminds me of street preachers.

      They are not much good if people just pass by.  Only if people stop and listen and maybe reply and talk can the achieve their goal.

      by delver rootnose on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:34:51 PM PDT

  •  No

    Please don't fall for that "genius" bullshit. If someone treated you in a business dealing like he's treated people, you'd sue his ass purple.

    Intelligence without grace, humility and compassion is useless.

    by stevegilliard on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:24:58 PM PDT

    •  Slight disagreement

      Intelligence without grace, humility and compassion is useless.

      Not useless, just not to be given decision-making (read: delete your blog) power. Weiner's an asshole as well as a brilliant engineer.

      I've worked with a couple of asshole/madman engineers, and personally they're usually not worth the trouble. But they do come up with great shit that other -- often unrelated -- people pick up and put to great use.

      by Outlandish Josh on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:11:27 PM PDT

  •  10 years in the future?

    It's been my experience that Winer lives ten years in an alternate future.

    by rusty on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:23:48 AM PDT

    •  actually,

      he's a man to the side of his own time.

      by skippy on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 11:49:11 AM PDT

      •  Out standing in his field.

        Or someone's field anyway. Definitely standing out there, though. In a field.

        by rusty on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 11:06:59 AM PDT

•  He must get lots of trolls

  That's my one pet peeve with comments. Trolls. Some people take advantage of the anonymity of the web to be total jerks.

  Other than that, I think that comments are great.

  by mrboma on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:15:09 PM PDT

  •  True, but

    here we are fairly troll free.

    I never mind a good back and forth, but trolling is not even close to that.

    More blogs should use the system that Kos uses.

    by SanJoseLady on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:16:38 PM PDT

    •  I agree, but sometimes

      I think the ratings system also allows for uncalled for censorship. People --- not all, but some mind you --- sometimes abuse it by rating down things they disagree with or the posts of people they dislike, and it gets a little clique-ish. That said, I still appreciate it because it prevents many troll rants and moves others to the "hidden comments" place where I can choose not to look at them if I prefer.

      I enjoy the threaded nature more than anything else. The interface here is impressive, and makes the comment section much easier to navigate. It's certainly an interesting and innovative way of doing things.

      Ally

      by ally on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:30:43 PM PDT

      •  Even with ratings abuse

        things that don't deserve to disappear, usually don't, since other people step in and keep the comments visible.  

        No one person can "abuse" the system in that sense, so it works.  If I ever find a comment that has been hidden and I believe it shouldn't be, I can uprate it.  So the so-called "censorship" isn't really.  Mostly what get bruised are egos, not speech rights.  People are allowed to say what they think, but then other people let them know that what they think is garbage.  That's the problem.  So when someone says for instance, "what you posted demonstrates that you are a pig" the original poster then whines about folks being "too PC" or having "no sense of humor".  They can't accept that others don't find them brilliant.  What people expect from free speech is a free ride, and that's not what it means.  
        If there's any abuse, its the other way around, with people handing out 4's for comments that I wish we could just accept as the "standard of discourse".  

        by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:16:55 PM PDT

        •  I've seen a few posts disappear

          because they merely posted combatting views, but they usually get rated back up; you're right. The poster still oftentimes gets something barely above a 1 for something that was substantive and just in disagreement with a particular view.

          I think a 2 is fine for a comment that seems to be rooted in something that is fundamentally wrong, but unless it's content free or offensive, I don't understand why people hand out 1s and 0s (and it's very few people I'm speaking about) just because they find it disagreeable --- I mean when it's on topic and about an issue, for instance, not anything like what you mentioned above.

          Ally

          by ally on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:30:11 PM PDT

          •  Yes that's my point

            that when abuse occurs it can be corrected. As for those who use 1s and 0s to register "disagreement", I think what they are mostly measuring is a dysfunctional ego.   But that's my own theory, nothing scientific.

            That's where the self-publication idea/mode of blogs or even comments runs amok in my opinion.  Its not the existence of comments that are the problem, its the over investment of ego into the comments that's a reside of a culture of authorship and copyright.  

            As someone said of Winer above; its the wrong paradigm.  

            by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:47:40 PM PDT

          •  What is an appropriate rating to indicate....

            support of an issue?  Sort of like saying I agree but without actually posting a separate comment with just "I agree".  There are times I wish to express my support for an idea but really do not think the post deserves either a 4 or even a 3.  It may be a good idea but presented poorly.

            by delver rootnose on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:54:43 PM PDT

            •  Since I don't

              consider it my job to "grade" posters on their presentation (that's not what I see the ratings for) I use 3s to signal agreement, if it needs to be signalled.  I'm not sure that it always needs to be signalled.  If its a position that isn't often talked about here, is oft ignored or runs slightly against the conventional wisdom, I"ll generally give it a "4" for raising issues that the dKos common sense tends to ignore (it turns out that I give a lot of posts that introduce feminist analyses and perspectives into the discussions "4s", whodathunk it?).  The posts I tend to rate 4's outside of that (providing the discussion with a new/useful viewpoint that hasn't been introduced before) are the ones I think are really funny.  I tend to give 4s the most for that.

              If I really agree with someone, I'll post a comment to let them know and reiterate what I think is important and deserves to be echoed.  (Echoes aren't always bad, despite our desire to avoid the echo chamber effect).

              by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:27:58 PM PDT

            •  If it's presented poorly, I usually don't

              give anything. Sometimes, I'll leave a 4 if it's a good idea and well said, to show my agreement. If something is a poor idea and poorly said and the poster has double posted a similar idea all throughout the thread, but not offensive in any way, I'll sometime, but rarely, leave a 2. If something is offensive or content-free, I troll rate it (1 or 0). I really don't use the threes.

              I really don't rate a whole lot. If something is really brilliant and makes me laugh out loud (not just average funny but hilarious) or really good information --- something I hadn't heard yet that I was thrilled they posted in depth about --- I'll sometimes leave a 4 for those too.

              I think everybody can decide how to use the ratings 2-4, but they should follow the guidelines on troll rating (offensive or content free). That's just me.

              Ally

              by ally on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:53:33 AM PDT

              •  Thanks for the replies..

                I have been trying to come to grips with the rating system.  At other places rating or recomend systems have devolved into popularity contests.  Since dKos ratings have the additional censorship effect I hope this does not come to pass here.

                by delver rootnose on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 11:00:50 AM PDT

  •  That's the scary thing

    about comments.  You never know what you're going to get.  I put up a personal blog a long while back, and bad language or obscene comments were my biggest worry.  Turned out my site didn't get enough traffic to worry much. :)

    I currently work on a site that has a guest book.  Just lately it has been overrun with people posting 2 screenfuls of porn links, or gambling links.  It's a pain and embarrassing to the client.
    

    by OLinda on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:19:40 PM PDT

    •  400 hits a day

      And you'll get trolls. That's what I've noticed. You have to have a critical mass before they can smell you :)

      by decembersue on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:30:21 PM PDT

  •  you suck!

    j/k.  irony.

    by skippy on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 11:50:08 AM PDT

•  I love the comments

  Being able to comment makes it so much more than a publication.  I like Talking Points Memo but I only spend a short amount of time there.  Daily Kos is more than a publication, it's a community.  Can we imagine no comments or diaries?  This is how we get breaking news.  Why does Winer think comments have failed?

  by Unstable Isotope on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:15:26 PM PDT

  •  Why he thinks they failed?

    Perhaps because he's only thinking from the perspective of the "author".

    Are bloggers "authors" or are they interlocators?

    by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:29:39 PM PDT

•  Comments MAKE the blogs

  I come to Kos for his postings (I LOVE you Kos!) and then to enjoy all the comments.  Talkingpointsmemo, while good, is a bit dry, and I do NOT visit it as often as I come here.

  Every person I have told about Kos becomes an instant addict, checking this blog repeatedly during the day.

  Kos is great, but so are all who post comments.

  Thank you for ALWAYS giving me something to think about!

  This guy has NO clue about communication (I am a communication/PR major) and I can tell you two way communication is what it is all about.

  Ok...time to sit back and read some more.

  by SanJoseLady on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:15:29 PM PDT

•  Welp...

  Considering what i have read about his ego...

  Make sense that the only comments he wants to hear are his own.
  

  by cookiesandmilk on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:15:38 PM PDT

  •  I wonder

    I don't really know Dave, but in an earlier  comment I mentioned someone like Rush L. might agree.

    by OLinda on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:34:59 PM PDT

•  depends on your goal

  I think the problem with his statement is that, despite being an innovator, he is holding onto an old paradigm.  Yes, blogs are publications, but they are also communities, and communities require discourse.

  by ohno on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:16:00 PM PDT

•  Removing comments quashes dissent

  People like Matt Yglesias have removed their comments feature after bemoaning the existence of trolls.  But for as long as there are people gathering together in informal associations and talking to each other, there are going to be trolls.

  In the meantime, having there be no comments makes it a heck of a lot harder to offer constructive criticism and get posts updated to fix errors or add new followup information.

  Comments also allow someone to contribute who can't be arsed to set up his/her own blog.  There's a heck of a lot of content in the comments on Atrios's site that would just be lost without comments.

  by phil on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:16:17 PM PDT

  •  Not only does away with dissent but

    makes the blog all about the blogger and about little else-- the blogger's views, outlooks, takes on topics, and only his/her views, outlooks, and takes.  A blog with an active community of commentors (and diarists) makes the blog less about one person and more about a -- well, a community!

    I thought community was the future or the great potential of the Web?  How is that served by commentless, non-participatory blogs?  I don't get it.

    by cinnamondog on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:42:23 PM PDT

  •  Errrrrrr

    who can't be arsed to set up his/her own blog

    ?????!???

    Any number of reasons why people don't set up their own blogs, not just laziness or lack of gumption, etc.

    And I can't think of anything more distasteful than a sphere of little, separate and isolated soapboxes with people projecting their ideas outward from themselves, but taking nothing in. That's just an an expansion of the already existing circumstance in the commercial media.

    by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:43:38 PM PDT

•  Could you imagine?

  I spend too much time here as it is. It sent a shiver down my spine to think about having to go to different blogs to get everyone's take on a topic, on top of reading this blog and a few of my other favorites.

  by frey60 on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:16:40 PM PDT

•  improvement

  I love the comments, and often find
  they add invaluable information,
  and daresay, nuance.

  here they could be improved if Kos
  would set a narrow margin for them.

  trying to read lines that are screen wide,
  or wider, going left to right, worse than
  a tennis match, it makes my neck hurt.
  even worse, it is S L O W going.

  please set the margins no wider than
  the main page text. please.

  thanks.
  

  by Woody on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:17:12 PM PDT

  •  huh

    I find the itty-bitty lines of type on your comment kind of irritating, myself.  Makes me feel like I'm reading poetry, which is a different kind of reading than I come in here mentally prepared to do.  

    I'd say that the current width of comments works pretty well, and that if the margins were brought in it would take so much more scrolling down.

    by MissLaura on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:20:48 PM PDT

    •  You're probably not seeing it the same

      That's the problem with the Web: pages look different to every visitor, depending on their browser settings, monitor size, video card, etc.  To me, it's quite difficult to read these comments because they are wider than the screen.  They are cut off at both ends.  You have to keep scrolling back and forth, and it's hard to remember what the beginning of the sentence was by the time you get to the end.  

      I like the short, "itty-bitty" lines.  At least I can see them!

      by randym77 on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:29:58 PM PDT

      •  yeah, I hate when pages load like that

        This one doesn't load like that for me, but if I have to scroll sideways, I don't get very far.

        Ally

        by ally on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:33:32 PM PDT

        •  This is what this page looks like on my monitor:

          

          by randym77 on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:42:25 PM PDT

          •  There's your problem right there...

            You're using IE.
            101 things that the Mozilla browser can do that IE cannot.

            

            by doug r on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:06:24 PM PDT

            •  I have IE, and my screen

              doesn't look like that.

              Just saying.

              I'm not exactly browser savvy, but can't the settings just be changed?

              Ally

              by ally on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:11:50 PM PDT

              •  Settings can be changed

                But it results in text the size of microfilm.  I suspect the people who have this problem have larger monitors and high-res video cards.  Great for video games, and necessary if you work in the graphics field.  But it makes CSS-controlled text on the Web look extremely tiny.  (OTOH, for people with smaller monitors/lower-res cards, CSS-controlled text may look huge.  One reason why I hate CSS!)

                by randym77 on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 03:45:52 AM PDT

            •  well

              It looks just like the screenshot on my Mozilla browser.

              by mcjoan on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:13:10 PM PDT

              •  me too

                n/t

                by juls on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:18:07 PM PDT

    •  OT - margins

      Boy, I sure agree.  Makes me wonder about usability studies that tell us to only have pages "so" wide, with "so" much text in a line.  I know another poster on another site who does this supposedly to keep the page from "widening."  Drives me crazy and is very hard for me to read.
      

      by OLinda on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:32:42 PM PDT

    •  I'm with you

      Reading text as Woody has formatted it is like watching ping pong - not pleasant.

      Having said that, the combination of the thought-provoking posts by the main contributors and the commenters is what makes DKos so addictive to me.  

      The diversity of perspective here (although it seems like it sometimes, this is no echo chamber) has helped me understand how a message can be interpreted differently by different people.  It has helped me recognize a few stereotypes I carry within, and even has been educational with respect to the obscure origin of common phrases (not to mention typography).  

      The ability to safely express your opinion, defend it, and either prevail, concede, or let the discussion go is wonderful.  Where else can you do that?

      I find it frustrating to read TPM at times, without the ability to post back to JMM how I agree or disagree.  I understand why some blogs don't have comments, but I'm glad some (like DKos) do.

      $0.02

      by Ernest T Bass on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:32:58 PM PDT

      •  Given the intervening posts,

        I should have written: I'm with MissLaura

        by Ernest T Bass on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:36:12 PM PDT

    •  news, not poetry

      narrow columns, not like poetry,
      more like a newspaper column,
      was what I had in mind.

      back when I took the Evelyn Wood
      speed reading course, I saw how
      it was possible to scan a column
      of newspaper text in a flash.

      but here, I spent about three hours --
      3 hours!!! -- trying to read Hunter's
      diary and all the comments on
      typography.

      does anyone wonder why reporters
      didn't spend 3 hours reading all the
      comments on that diary?

      yes, I did have to scroll back and
      forth, much more difficult to do
      than to scroll down. then I just
      put a fingertip on the down arrow
      on my keyboard and go.

      but to read back and forth across
      a line of text that is wider than my
      screen, click click click until I'm
      ready to stop. enough is enough.

      and I guess it's my own fault
      for using Internet Explorer, in
      common with something more
      than half the Universe.

      by Woody on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:17:04 PM PDT

      •  It's not IE

        It's a combination of your hardware and your browser settings.

        I suspect more and more people are going to have this problem as monitors get larger and video card resolutions get higher.  Even people with smaller screens might have this problem, if they have their text size set too large.  (Some of us are north of 30, and can't read tiny type.  Heck, some of us are visually impaired.  My dad has macular degeneration, and has to set the text size large or he can't read it.  He'd never be able to read this site.)
        

        by randym77 on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 04:08:34 AM PDT

  •  aoeu

    Move your monintor back

    by TealVeal on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:25:26 PM PDT

    •  do what?

      move my monitor back?

      is this advice? in which case,
      you're being too succinct
      to be helpful. I honestly don't
      know what you're suggesting
      that I could do to solve my
      problem reading the wide lines.

      if this is meant as an insult,
      I guess I'm too dense to get it.

      by Woody on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:25:21 PM PDT

      •  I think it was ment to be...

        a slightly sarcastic joke as opposed to an insult; but since I did not say it I don't really know.

        by delver rootnose on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:16:03 PM PDT

      •  aoeu

        no, you're saying you have to move your neck to read the screen, your monitor should be back far enough you just have to move your eyes to read a whole screen.

        by TealVeal on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 08:29:48 AM PDT

        •  an American with Disabilities

          you've smoked me out of my hole,
          to borrow a phrase.

          yes, I'm a 60-year-old wearer of
          reading glasses.

          often late at night when I'm tired,  
          I pull down the view bar and click
          to enlarge the type. if I do that I can
          never read the comments.

          with enlarged type, the comments
          always look like the second
          part of the screenshot above  
          provided by randym77.
          (thanks for that visual aide!)

          looks like I'm asking for some
          accommodatiion in the spirit of
          the Americans with Disabilities Act.

          I'd like the comments posted in
          a narrower column width to help
          me cope with my impaired vision.
          that way when I enlarge the type,
          I could still see all the words on
          the monitor without scrolling left
          to right, and back again and again.

          BTW I can enlarge the type and
          read the main page posts, in
          a wide but not-too-wide column.
          but not the comments.

          by Woody on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 04:50:43 PM PDT

          •  aoeu

            Which browser do you use?  There must be some way to force it to do "text wrapping."

            by TealVeal on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 04:54:26 PM PDT

            •  No, I don't think so

              At least, I've never found a way around it.  I think it's the coding of the page that has to change, so it adjusts to your screen rather the screen adjusting to the text.  

              by randym77 on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:08:43 PM PDT

              •  On second thought...

                The problem might be super-long links.  If you post a really long URL with no breaks, the screen widens to accommodate it.  

                If that's what's causing the problem, the answer is to use MakeAShorterLink.com or TinyURL if you're posting a long link.  

                by randym77 on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:13:23 PM PDT

                •  aoeu

                  the links do break
                  the screen

                  by TealVeal on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:29:47 PM PDT

            •  non techie

              having confessed to being
              a near-sighted sexagenarian
              (thank god for Bob Dole's
              little blue pills)
              I can also admit
              to being no techie.

              I am using Internet Explorer on
              a 4-going-on-5 year-old Mac G3.
              (I know, it's past time to buy ...)

              no idea how to do "text wrapping" --
              not knowing what that function is
              exactly, or where to access it or how.

              but thanks for paying attention to
              my problem.

              by Woody on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:16:44 PM PDT

              •  It's the links

                If people would try to post shorter links, either by using HTML or MakeAShorterLink/TinyURL, we wouldn't have a problem.  The text would wrap correctly.

                I think that long Dallas Morning News URL in the thread below this one is what's making this screen so wide.  

                On some boards, moderators delete or shorter long URLs in order to keep the page readable.  That's obviously not an option here, so we can only ask that people try to keep links brief.

                by randym77 on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:45:55 PM PDT

•  BREAKING - SECRETARY SAYS CONTENT CORRECT

  DALLAS MORNING NEWS - BREAKING
  "Mrs. Knox said she did all of Lt. Col. Killian's typing, including memos for a personal "cover his back" file he kept in a locked drawer of his desk.

  She said she did not recall typing the memos reported by CBS News, though she said they accurately reflect the viewpoints of Lt. Col. Killian and documents that would have been in the personal file."

  http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/091504dnpolnatguard.1185eb4ae.html

  by chicagoprogressive on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:17:16 PM PDT

  •  How much play

    will this get in the a.m. papers?  I'm guessing page 24 in the Sun-Times, and page 16 in the Tribune.

    by cinnamondog on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:44:16 PM PDT

    •  Page 1

      Might make page 1 in the North Haverbrook Bugle-Democrat and the Ogdenburg Reader-Gazette. Because, by golly, those towns are on the map!

      by DavidNYC on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:32:36 PM PDT

•  They can be irritating, but

  I would say that comments absolutely have a place in blogs, and this site is the best evidence of that.  Here, because of registration and nesting and ratings and all that other stuff, the comments sections really are great places for discussion, and the discussion reaches a very high level.  Not to say that's consistent, but then, neither is face-to-face conversation.  

  I will say that I find the un-nested, unregulated comments on a site with as many readers and commenters as Atrios to be a little irritating, and I rarely read the comments there for that reason.  If I find something I wanted to reply to, by the time I'm replying 40 comments downthread, anything I have to say is totally beside and beyond the point.  It's like being that idiot in high school history who always asked a question that would have been vaguely relevant but not very interesting 10 minutes earlier.  On smaller blogs, though, that comment format works perfectly well.

  Frankly, I doubt I'd spend as much time reading blogs if it weren't for comments -- and I certainly wouldn't spend as much time here.

  So, to close: Yeah, he's wrong.

  by MissLaura on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:17:17 PM PDT

•  A Comment

  I disagree.

  I think we should qualify this a little bit.

  I agree that unmoderated, free-for-all, commenting is not very useful. Anyone says what they want and usually not much careful thought goes behind each poster's opinion. However, if commenting were heavily moderated and guided they could be very useful.

  A free-for-all environment doesn't usually generate anything more than a free-for-all.

  On the otherhand, DKos has not a few thoughtful members so in fact I do come to KOS mostly for the comments. Take that for what you will ;)

  by Gimli on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:17:41 PM PDT

•  Winer is Wrong

  I can't tell you how wrong Winer is.

  Any automatic definition of what blogs are, or aren't, is stupid.

  It's like someone in 1951 saying, "this is what TV is."

  I've seen this sort of nonsense since the Web was spun a decade ago, and it never ceases to amaze me.

  If your blog runs well with comments, run comments. IF it doesn't, don't.

  Experiment.

  Don't let some "expert" tell you what the technology is supposed to be.

  You don't do that with politics, do you?

  by Dana Blankenhorn on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:17:41 PM PDT

•  nah.

  Go to Making Light and take a look at the comments. Just brilliant.

  Also, a lot of stories that have travelled all over the blogosphere have come from someone in comments on one of the established weblogs.

  Possibly Mr. Winer isn't a fan of comments because he tends to get flamed a lot? He's not a notably diplomatic fellow.

  by julia on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:18:17 PM PDT

  •  Making Light

    is troll-free because Teresa Neilsen Hayden enforces civility with an iron wit.

    A post that is rude, abusive, or content-free... does not get deleted. Oh no. Much worse that that. It is, ah, disemvoweled. Like this:

    n pst tht s rd, bsv, r cntnt-fr... ds nt gt dltd.

    A few rounds of this tends to discourage even the most ego-driven of trolls. Comment spam, on the other hand, is ruthlessly deleted.

    The general high standard of their comment threads is possibly because TNH and PNH (Electrolite) are professional science fiction editors, and were fans before they were pros... Their comment threads somehow tend to attract other people who value the written word highly.

    by Canadian Reader on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:56:08 PM PDT

•  -1 Redundant

  Comments really don't add much.

  by TealVeal on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:18:53 PM PDT

•  i think you hit the nail on the head kos

  there are two categories of blogs, communities and straight up blogs.  TPM is an example of a great blog well written and researched that has a lot of positive impact.  dailykos is a true community.  we all contribute to the end product.  it is always evolving.  personally i think this place is much more interesting and revolutionary of a phenomenon.

  one day a book will be written about the sociology of the web communities and i guarantee a large section will be devoted to this place. we have our own culture here with social norms, fights, tears, laughter etc.  the more time i spend here the more amazed i am at the power of this medium.

  by juls on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:19:14 PM PDT

  •  This is a special place

    Not just a blog. The key is the high quality of writing by Kos and the guest bloggers - and they attract a similarly high quality audience who provide comments that are for the most part worth reading.

    That makes it a great place to get ideas, then work out what they mean. Also to keep up on the stuff the media isn't presenting.

    by Rick B on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:29:14 PM PDT

  •  Cybersociology...

    ...is already an established field. I edit independent study courses for a living, and one of my upcoming projects will be a cybersociology course; I put first dibs on it as soon as I found out it was in the pipeline.  

    by galnoir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:44:36 PM PDT

    •  very cool

      it has always been a fascinating topic for me.  i am in the middle of "smart mobs" right now. what all is going to be on the reading list?

      by juls on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:08:30 PM PDT

      •  Don't know yet

        The course is still with the author, so I won't get the materials list or the lessons themselves until they've been approved by the coordinator. But I'm really looking forward to working on it!

        by galnoir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:37:01 PM PDT

        •  i recommend a recent thread

          where Kossacks composed a parody to Jefferson Airplane's "white rabbit" in distributed manner in a matter of minutes.  I watched in awe. here's the thread

          by bribri on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:40:04 PM PDT

  •  TPM?

    I'm sorry but I have begun to place Josh Marshall in the unfortunate category of useful idiots for the right.  Between pre-war liberal hawkishness and his current willingness to agree with LGF "analyses" of documents he does more harm than good.

    by GreenSooner on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:47:05 PM PDT

  •  Precisely, juls

    It just depends on the kind of blog you're talking about. My hobby blog goes along quite happily with little or no comment (sometimes my very lovely family will drop a comment in to make me feel like someone is reading). This is a very different kind of beast. It wouldn't be nearly as much fun a place with the chance for all of us to pitch in.

    by mcjoan on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:19:52 PM PDT

•  Comments ROCK

  Some Blogs are not necessarily "publications", but rather discussions where ideas and thoughts are distributed and bandied about. I have learned more about a wide variety of subjects from comments, and not necessarily the original post.

  Call it the modern day "water cooler", but of a more educated, world weary sort.

  There was once a time when Journalists thought that they were the only ones to "tell it like it is." Anyone disagreeing with them was simply stupid, wrong and/or woefully uninformed. Blogs have changed all that. Sorry to see some bloggers have now begun to think themselves in the same ilk as "journalists" of old.

  by jillian on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:19:24 PM PDT

  •  I agree

    do we really want to use "journalists" as a model for public and collective discourse?

    by a gilas girl on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:13:12 PM PDT

•  Like the comments...

  My only issue with dKos is the diaries.  

  There's got to be someway to cut down on the multiple diaries or have the community self-police on diaries as with comments. There have been at least two troll diaries recently...

  by Newsie8200 on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:20:20 PM PDT

  •  we're supposed to self-police

    on the single line diaries and repeats, but it seems like most people have given up and just let them go. I think the only way to get rid of troll diaries, though, is to e-mail one of the drivers of this big old orange bus to kick them off.

    by mcjoan on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 07:23:11 PM PDT

    •  There is also the recipe-trading responses

      I remember a week ago, somebody was way out of line. So we started discussing recipes; trading advice on wines that go with boeuf bourguignon (somebody suggested a red wine from Oregon); discussing which vegetable oil is more appropriate to fry onion rings, etc.

      We had a great time until the author decided to delete his diary; thus removing our own comments. Well, that's life!

      by ClaudeB on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:52:38 PM PDT

      •  Chateau Neuf De Pape of course.

        Great Idea;  I love it.

        by delver rootnose on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:01:13 PM PDT

•  well it depends on what the goal is!!!

  well it depends on what the goal is!!!

   I mean if you want your blog to be ALL ABOUT ME & THE WONDER THAT IS MY WORLD, then comments are going to take the spotlight away from you & yeah, you would fail to acheive your goal.

   if your aim is to build community, make it about WE instead of ME, comments ( & abundance of 'em) is a sign of success!!!

  by n69n on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:20:39 PM PDT

•  What a great place!

  These comments serve as a link to others, as a source of community, as a foil by which we judge our own thoughts. It is a pure form of scientific method, ratings and all.

  Yes there are faults, singing to the choir, echo chamber, trolls. There are human faults, too. I am sure all of them come across the bow at one time or other.

  But Kos is a place a treasure. it is responsive. It helps ferret out the truth. It mobilizes action. I find intellegent, sensitive people here who share a passion for action. I like it.

  by oofer on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:20:52 PM PDT

•  Comments

  Are the main reason I frequent the blogs that I do. Except TPM, of course.

  No, sorry. I won't go away if you cancel the comments. Forget it. I am not that easy to get rid of.

  by Rick B on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:20:54 PM PDT

•  Comments at Daily Kos are... different-

  I've read other blogs with comments, and keep coming back here and marvelling at what we have at dKos. We have the lowest noise-to-content ratio that I've seen, the rating system (though there are detractors, I know) helps keep us civil and on point, and the community that has been built is phenomenal. (I hate the passive phrasing in that last clause, but I couldn't figure out how to fix it.)

  Winer is a Whiner. He can't do it, so he criticizes those who can. Count me as not impressed.

  by Lainie on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:22:50 PM PDT

  •  "we've built a phenomenal community" ??

    I've been editing college application essays tonight and am still in edit mode.

    by badger on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:27:32 PM PDT

•  Us

  How many of you think comments have failed?

  Since first coming to this site sometime in Fall of 2003, I've generally found comments to be a good thing. But I wonder if we shouldn't be asking a different question, e.g. "How should the comments be used, or should there be any strictures on the posting of comments?"

  Some people post insightful comments, some post questions, some jokes, some flame, some vent, etc. I think the diversity of the kinds of comments posted reflects the diversity of motivations people have in coming to this site. And, while I might not like everything about this community, I feel like it's my online political community. I wouldn't change a thing.

  by machopicasso on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:24:00 PM PDT

•  of course

  but it's up to the host...
  If Winer (or anyone else) doesn't like comments, then they don't have to read them...or make them.
  it's a free country...for the time being.

  by gvtv on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:24:43 PM PDT

  •  what I meant was

    they haven't failed, but to have them is up to the host...

    by gvtv on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:26:02 PM PDT

•  Community

  
  Comments are truly important.  But the reason is not just the content of the comments.  It's the human interaction.

  When I come to Kos, I feel like I know people.  There are people I trust, and people I don't trust.  There are those I like, and those who infuriate me.  There are the oldtimers, and the newbies.  There's even the ability to reward and chastise people.  All this is important, because otherwise this blog would feel sterile.  

  There are blogs out there with great content but no comments.  I breeze through them sometimes.  But in the end, the lack something.  It's mostly one-way.  It misses a whole dynamic that we thrive on as people.  

  Now, ideally, all this is done between people in person, and hopefully we all have enough of that in our lives.  But where will I find a whole group of people at any time waiting to discuss the political topic that's on my mind?

  Certainly not a blog without comments.

  by CTDem2 on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:24:59 PM PDT

  •  More than just a community

    This is an experiment in socilogy. I don't know what the hypotheses are and how the measurements are being made, but they need to be.

    It is a simplfied group model that is self-documenting. Should make someone an excellent Ph.D. disertation.

    Just measure the changes that occurred when the evaluations were first instituted. Request people to fill out questionaires, compare the results by member number and determine what changes have happened in the community over time. Stuff like that.

    Or do participant observer stuff, like anthropologists. <grin> That one would also be fun.

    Or maybe just do what I have been doing - enjoy it.

    by Rick B on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:39:10 PM PDT

•  Comments are a failure

  Moderated comments, on the other hand.. ;)

  If it weren't for the comments, I wouldn't be here.

  by Craziel on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:25:46 PM PDT

•  interactivity is AWESOME!!!

  by NewWay4NewDay on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:25:50 PM PDT

•  He's wrong

  Although I mentioned in response to another comment my problem with rude comments, it's crazy to think a blog is better without comments, or that comments have failed!

  Coming from Winer that's almost blasphemous.

  This is what the Web is all about.  If you want to read someone's opinion and not participate, read a paper.  The Web is about joining, communication, sharing, bringing us all together, hearing different viewpoints, expanding ideas.  

  Good grief.  It's a conversation.

  If you're Rush L., and you don't want to give a voice to dissenting opinions, okay, fine.  Other than that I can't understand why anyone would not like feedback.

  I wonder if Dave just uses a crummy comment feature, for example, not allowing threads.  That is kind of difficult and not conducive to conversation.
  

  by OLinda on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:26:07 PM PDT

•  hmmm

  uh whatever.  

  perhaps we aren't a blog then.

  semantics don't mean much to me ... but to say
  general comments don't have their place here is
  laughable.
  

  by JoelK in AZ on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:27:17 PM PDT

•  he's got it wrong - you are the future of blogs.

  I like comments except when they dis the democratic party. then I hate comments.

  Actually I find the comments to be a great resource. I think the comments add dimension to issues you post on your site. It's also a way for people to post additional info on hot stories that you dig up - it helps develop an ongoing story and flush out the topic. They are an asset to the cause.  

  community - brothers and sisters!

  by CrazyDem on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:28:08 PM PDT

•  Dude,

  GLARING conflict of interest here.  What kind of feedback do you expect when you ask blog commenters to comment on blog comments in a blog?  Blogjective or Bliased?

  There's precedent for Winer's whining (whoops), though:  One person who absolutely DETESTED "The Nutcracker" was. . . its own composer, Peter Tchaikovsky.

  People have been wrong about their own creations before.

  by Dragonchild on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 06:30:08 PM PDT

  •  Stephen King threw out hisCarrie Manuscript